high hands: how do you play them?

[hezster]

I've been beating 0.25/0.50, 0.50/1, and 1/2 O8 full ring for about 3.1 BB/100 over about 5500 hands, but looking at PTO I see what seems to be a glaring leak. In my category of hands containing four cards greater than nine, I'm at -0.09BB/hand, almost twice that of my "rag combo" category (hands containing 78,79,89).

Now I understand that 5500 hands is not nearly enough to do much meaningful statistical analysis, but when I see such a difference from my overall result for what I consider to be somewhat premium hands, I must deduce that I'm doing something wrong. My VPIP for this type of hand is 96.10, while overall it is 23.53, so I think this is the problem.

So when do you play this type of hand in a full ring game?

Only in late position when you can get in cheap?
Only when x players enter the pot where you expect the low cards are out and the flop will come high?
Do you only play those that contain an ace?
Do you ever open-raise with them, for instance KKQT (1 suited), in late position or do you feel it is a one-way hand and so you don't want to mess with it?

Thoughts?

[TxRedMan]

i didnt read your entire OP, but i'll give you some basic, or maybe not so basic info on high hands in LO8.

high hands play well in multiway pots. draw from this what you will.

high hands are high variance hands. they generally will not win b/c too often you wont be able to play them past the flop, so they're usually a small investment, but when they do win they have great scoop potential. in other words, you'll lose several small bets with them seeing a flop, often times not going to showdown, but when played correctly- you will often scoop large pots with them when you go to showdown.

if you have QJT9 in a four way pot and the flop comes J-2-3, it is almost always correct to abandon your hand on the flop.

something that many players forget when playing high only hands is that you're usually playing for half the pot. i.e., maybe there's 10 BB's in the pot, but if there's 3 low cards on the board, you're getting 5-1 nearly always. so bear in mind that when two low cards are on the board on the flop, there's going to be 24 cards that can come on the turn or river that cut your pot odds in half.

people get frustrated with high only hands and often misplay them because they haven't won a pot with one in a long time. remember, often times it's worth it to see a flop, but you need to be aware that most of the time your four face cards will be in the muck after the flop.

edited to add:

if you're in the CO or the Button and there's two or three limpers to you, or if there's two limpers and a couple of light blind defenders, i'd reccomend raising the majority of your high only hands.

an obvious spot here is when there's three limpers and you're on the button with something similar to KKJ10 or KQJ10, or AKQJ. the deck will often be rich in high cards, and your implied odds are very good in spots like this, and your hand should be easy enough to play past the flop that you're only investing one more small bet and when you continue with the hand past the flop you should often have by far the best of it.

[hezster]

Thanks, Tx. Nice piece of advice about raising in multiway pot. I think I pretty much understand how to play them postflop. I don't usually proceed past the flop on a low flop, particularly multiway. I guess my problem is that I feel I play those hands too much, like almost every time I get them. I play them out of position, I cold-call with them when it's likely the raiser has aces. I'm wondering if others have more stringent guidelines. Do you only play them in multiway pots, for example.

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, Tx. Nice piece of advice about raising in multiway pot. I think I pretty much understand how to play them postflop. I don't usually proceed past the flop on a low flop, particularly multiway. I guess my problem is that I feel I play those hands too much, like almost every time I get them. I play them out of position, I cold-call with them when it's likely the raiser has aces. I'm wondering if others have more stringent guidelines. Do you only play them in multiway pots, for example.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i'm UTG with a rainbow AKQJ it's going into the muck.

if there's an early position raise and i'm on the button with KQJ10, it's going into the muck.


dont play these hands unless the situation is or aims to be profitable, i.e., multiway, and especially multiway and in position.

a lot of people make the mistake of playing way too many hands preflop in LO8. i see guys who would otherwise be winning players, but they play any A4, any kind of double suited KQJ3 hand, etc, etc, thinking that they can actually play these hands profitably post flop, but it's a huge disadvantage to over come.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess my problem is that I feel I play those hands too much, like almostevery time I get them.

[/ QUOTE ]hezster - There is a big variation in 40 point hands. I'm not sure why some authors seem to lump them together.

For example, KKQQ-double-suited is quite a nice starting hand while KQJT-rainbow is a hand I don’t like it much. It’s mostly a high straight hand and straights get beaten a lot by flushes and boats at full, loose Omaha-8 tables.

KQJT-rainbow is nice when the flop has two or more cards the same rank or ranks as the cards in the hand. In that case, at the very least it has a straight draw plus two pairs. Lots of outs, especially if the flop is a rainbow too. But that doesn't happen much. (220/17296 for three cards of those same ranks and 2376/17296 for two cards of those same ranks for a grand total of about 15%). You can also play flops having one card of those ranks plus an ace and/or plus a nine, expanding the range of playable flops by more than double to about one third, but those are skimpier fits.

KQJT is better with a suited king, and more improved when double suited. You can make a very strong case for folding most ace-less high only rainbow hands in a tight game.

Still, I want to see the flop with KQJT-rainbow for a single bet, even though I don't like the hand much. I don't know what the solution is. I at least try to see the flop as cheaply as possible with most of these high-only hands.

But the result is often unpleasant. When you do make your high straight draw, you can expect to be quartered almost one third of the time in a full, loose game, and with one or two low cards on the flop, you’ll often have to split with low. Thus these 40 point hands are simply not the big scoopers they're cracked up to be.

Buzz

[TxRedMan]

The problem I see with a hand like KKQQ as opposed to KQJ10 is that KKQQ is misplayed much more often than KQJ10. Of course if all else is equal, KKQQ is stronger, but I think for a lot of players it's a -EV hand b/c they continue on a low flop with an over pair, and they justify it by thinking they might have the best high hand and have four outs to what's usually going to be top set, and they end up at showdown with one pair playing for half the pot.

Of course this is all relative to the player in question though.

But with four big connectors it's easier to play simply because of the lack of having an overpair on a low flop, and all the situations having an overpair presents.

A hand I had yesterday gave me some borderline trouble.

Double suited pocket kings, i.e, black KK47. The flop came with two low cards and two of my flush draw, and I had a backdoor flush draw with my over pair, and a very mediocre low draw. iirc 4 people saw the flop with me limping in after another limper and given the nature of the game I expected an unraised 4 or 5 way pot, which makes my hand often difficult to play but still a +ev hand. i made my flush on the turn but was unable to raise as it made a low possible but i was bet into by a player who would bet many hands in that spot and i had a player behind me after he bet. my flush was good at showdown, my low wasn't, but it demonstrates that you have to exercise caution with these types of hands, including the second nuts, especially on a board with a low possible because it's very possible to be getting free-rolled even if your high hand is best at the moment.

what high hands often boil down to is being +EV but very difficult to play both preflop and post flop. they're by far the hardest hands to play in this game, and I think that beginners would do themselves well to proceed very cautiously with them as most beginners will have a hold'em background and will play accordingly.

[greggg230]

What % of hands do you play, roughly, compared to Omaha high? Winning players seem to be fairly loose in Omaha High, but from what it sounds like, you really only play pretty coordinated hands and mostly hands with A2 / A3. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding.

[chaos]

A key concept to winning at O/8 is to play for scoops. When it appears likely that you are playing for only half the pot you should often fold. This is especially true when you are only drawing to win half the pot.

When you are holding four coordinated high cards and the flop comes with either two or three low cards you should be folding the vast majority of the time. This is especially true in loose low-limit games. Do not chase half the pot, wait for a better situation.

As Buzz pointed out all 40 point hands are not created equal. I am not fond of hands with pairs other than Aces, Kings, or Queens. If you flop a set with JJ or TT that set can not be the nuts at the river. Either a higher set or a straight will be possible.

- chaos

[hezster]

Looking at my stats, I see that my winrate drops off pretty dramatically between hands with AA,KK,QQ and hands with JJ,TT. I'm going to do away with hands like KQTT and AJJT unless at least the K or A is suited and I can get in for cheap in LP.

[hezster]

What about open-raising in LP? Would you more likely raise with a hand like KKQJ double-suited, figuring you have a better chance for high, or a hand like KK47 double-suited, figuring you have a two-way hand just in case?