Hugo Chavez Death Pool Thread

[bdk3clash]

This thread has caused me to add Venezuela to this list of things that are impossible to discuss rationally in a public forum. It's apparently like abortion, Israel and Palestine, and racism--people seem to have too much emotionally and intellectually invested in looking at the situation in a certain way to be objective, but they hold these assumptions on such a fundamental level that they're essentially not open to scrutiny.

I used to try to focus threads that discussed Venezuela and Chavez's government onto boring stuff like facts and numbers and the like, but I don't think it matters. Do a search if you care--all of this stuff has been discussed here before, by a lot of the same posters. I've post a lot of links in these threads if you want to dig a little further.

[zasterguava]

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So is democracy the antithesis of freedom? You can't have it both ways.

You believe the US should ACTIVELY oppose democracy in a foreign nation whilst spurting rubish about socialism being the 'anthesis of freedom'.

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Since democracy does not automaticity equal freedom then it doesn't really matter.

While a democratic system will tend to be more free it is not necessarily an indicator of freedom.

People can be duped into voting for a great deal of freedom robbing ideas. In the case of Venezuela they have bee tricked or bullied into thinking that socialism is the answer.

Socialism IS in fact the antithesis of freedom.

I already know that you are a socialist so we don't need to have a whole rehash of your beliefs. ok? I am totally fine with you being wrong, as long as you are and don't really have the time to teach you what your going to learn in the process of getting your Poli Sci degree.

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I am not a socialist and have never said I am. In fact I think my first post in the political forum stated that I had once been fond of democratic socialism but do not subscribe to it.

[zasterguava]

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Since socialism is the antithesis of freedom, I want the US to actively oppose him.

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Huh? Canada is moderately socialist and we are completely free. I'm pretty sure norway and sweden are very much socialist countries as well and I believe that Norway is usually ranked close to the top in "best places to live" lists.

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You are far from free, for starters you are denied medical rights as is the US and most other coutntires. I lived in Sweden for 5 years and certainly the popularity of socialism and currents within goverment is evident just from living in the close-knit friendly normal communities, neighbourhoods etc. where there is a real feel of community and well-being, the opposite of the UK which is supposed to have a democratic socialist government.

[tame_deuces]

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Since socialism is the antithesis of freedom, I want the US to actively oppose him.

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Huh? Canada is moderately socialist and we are completely free. I'm pretty sure norway and sweden are very much socialist countries as well and I believe that Norway is usually ranked close to the top in "best places to live" lists.

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You are far from free, for starters you are denied medical rights as is the US and most other coutntires. I lived in Sweden for 5 years and certainly the popularity of socialism and currents within goverment is evident just from living in the close-knit friendly normal communities, neighbourhoods etc. where there is a real feel of community and well-being, the opposite of the UK which is supposed to have a democratic socialist government.

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I think this is where the anarchists have a point (not referring to AC now). Individual freedom is essentially dependant on the cooperation in your community and a change of mindset in people.

What I mean is that the freedom doesn't just start at the government and trickle to the people, I think it is even more important how the people behave at the smaller level communities and how this culture affects the government.

[The once and future king]

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This thread has caused me to add Venezuela to this list of things that are impossible to discuss rationally in a public forum. It's apparently like abortion, Israel and Palestine, and racism--people seem to have too much emotionally and intellectually invested in looking at the situation in a certain way to be objective, but they hold these assumptions on such a fundamental level that they're essentially not open to scrutiny.

I used to try to focus threads that discussed Venezuela and Chavez's government onto boring stuff like facts and numbers and the like, but I don't think it matters. Do a search if you care--all of this stuff has been discussed here before, by a lot of the same posters. I've post a lot of links in these threads if you want to dig a little further.

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QFMFT.

[ConstantineX]

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Since socialism is the antithesis of freedom, I want the US to actively oppose him.

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Huh? Canada is moderately socialist and we are completely free. I'm pretty sure norway and sweden are very much socialist countries as well and I believe that Norway is usually ranked close to the top in "best places to live" lists.

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You are far from free, for starters you are denied medical rights as is the US and most other coutntires. I lived in Sweden for 5 years and certainly the popularity of socialism and currents within goverment is evident just from living in the close-knit friendly normal communities, neighbourhoods etc. where there is a real feel of community and well-being, the opposite of the UK which is supposed to have a democratic socialist government.

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What? The nation that has low effective tax rates for non-domiciled residents? The nation that has the center of international finance?

[ConstantineX]

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This thread has caused me to add Venezuela to this list of things that are impossible to discuss rationally in a public forum. It's apparently like abortion, Israel andPalestine, and racism--people seem to have too much emotionally and intellectually invested in looking at the situation in a certain way to be objective, but they hold these assumptions on such a fundamental level that they're essentially not open to scrutiny.

I used to try to focus threads that discussed Venezuela and Chavez's government onto boring stuff like facts and numbers and the like, but I don't think it matters. Do a search if you care--all of this stuff has been discussed here before, by a lot of the same posters. I've post a lot of links in these threads if you want to dig a little further.

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Bdk3clash,

Is there something mistaken with the articles I link? Do you dispute that he's destroying his economy, like the FT article I linked describes? You can't find eggs and milk cheaply in Caracas - this doesn't rob poor people? Though economic crisis isn't as sexy as say, monk repression, he's probably going to kill more people through unsexy methods like starvation in the long run, as dictators who predicated economic crises have typically done. Even his vaunted "Bolivarian socialism" hasn't done anything to reduce the poverty rate from the time of his second coup, which the New York Times article noted. Do you dispute that he now he has a history of cronyism within his government? Look at the way the Times article describes the wasteful and shameful way he is destroying the public capital of his nation. Besides, if economic terrorism hasn't marked him already, the new Il Duce will be graduating to bigger and badder things soon.

Do you dispute he has a history of self-aggrandizement and puffery? He recently threated existing Spanish investments in Venezuela after King Juan Carlos I asked him to "shut up" after he interrupted Spanish socialists numerous times, describing a previous Spanish prime minister as a "fascist". What a reversal of an ancient paradigm - who is the imperialist master now? But I'm sure expropriating Spanish property - those vile Western governments! - was the new revealed revelation towards the aims of "social justice" rather than plain old "bald-faced theft" to our Steward of the People. Count me in as all for resurrecting hundred year-old claims when convenient - damn it, I want my billion dollar reparation settlement!

But then again you'll just link articles from Venezuelanalysis (the most blatant example of collective ideological blinders on the Internet at large) that describe how Chavez has the support of the people, faces Western opposition, and was democratically elected. Unfortunately those ideas are indisputable, much like they were indisputable when a popular thug named Robert Mugabe came to power in 1987. Are you not at all convinced by the fact New York Times is pushing front page articles critical of the man? I thought this was a veritable coup, myself. Who wants Khmer Rouge-like egg on their face?

[ConstantineX]

Soldiers, Lines & Price Controls, Oh My!

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

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Since socialism is the antithesis of freedom, I want the US to actively oppose him.

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Huh? Canada is moderately socialist and we are completely free. I'm pretty sure norway and sweden are very much socialist countries as well and I believe that Norway is usually ranked close to the top in "best places to live" lists.

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Meh. The US is "moderately socialist", too. We're pretty free, but we'd be freer without so much government - income tax, Patriot Act, Social Security. And you're not completely free in Canada. Try keeping 100% of the money you earn and see how free Revenue Canada thinks you are.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

for starters you are denied medical rights

There are no such thing as "medical rights." Health care is a highly labor and capital intensive service, not an entitlement.

In fact, one of the BEST things about the US is we try to keep government out of health care.