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#51
08-31-2007, 10:08 AM
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Re: Rudy G\'s Tough Talk
[ QUOTE ]
Ah the old "no one forced you to live here" argument. As if most people could just relocate to another country on a whim. [/ QUOTE ] So you can't relocate on a whim. The majority of people can't. That doesn't mean you can just abolish gov't on your own and do whatever it is that you want to do. Some people have trouble respecting authority. You can't change the system the way it is, so you might as well just accept it. If you don't want to vote for Rudy, then don't vote for him. However, if Rudy wins and you voted for Ron Paul, don't have a coniption and start terrorizing your neighborhood because you no longer respect the government and don't want to "cede a great deal of discretion" to them. It's the law of the land; you can't change it so don't try. 
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#52
08-31-2007, 10:46 AM
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Re: Rudy G\'s Tough Talk
[ QUOTE ]
"Something which he has no experience in fighting." Nope, none at all. He only built the largest anti-terrorism unit in the world, with more NY a-t experts on the scene after the Madrid bombings and other major terrorist attacks as the FBI, and more translators of ME languages than in the entire Federal government. [/ QUOTE ]do you have a link or something to support this?
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#53
08-31-2007, 10:55 AM
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Re: Rudy G\'s Tough Talk
He's arguing the foundation of Democracy. While I don't necessarily agree or disagree with either of you, you might want to look up "Logical Fallacies". Appeal to authority ("It's the law of the land") is not a logical argument.
and this: [ QUOTE ] you can't change it so don't try [/ QUOTE ] Runs against the very idea of a funcational democracy.
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#54
08-31-2007, 11:11 AM
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Re: Rudy G\'s Tough Talk
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] you can't change it so don't try [/ QUOTE ] Runs against the very idea of a funcational democracy. [/ QUOTE ] I was going to make some kind of thought-out reply, but I decided to delete it and ask you to explain to me how 1 voter can change the system.
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#55
08-31-2007, 11:20 AM
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Re: Rudy G\'s Tough Talk
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] you can't change it so don't try [/ QUOTE ] Runs against the very idea of a funcational democracy. [/ QUOTE ] I was going to make some kind of thought-out reply, but I decided to delete it and ask you to explain to me how 1 voter can change the system. [/ QUOTE ] Technically any voted issue can come to 1 vote. The the real power, though, is in cumulative vote, voting with action (trying to get larger groups to vote), and in the political capital that your vote represents. The question can somewhat be paralleled to buying power. If you don't like company X, you don't shop at company x, but it will make a miniscule effect so why do you bother? Because it still has even a small effect. Voting isn't completely analagous because if you vote and lose, your vote essentially doesn't count as you still have to deal with the other guy, however losing votes are still looked at as polictial capital and garner attention not only from your own side to fight harder to win your area, but also with the other sides to recognize potential votes and try to win them over. And breaking up the legislative body into smaller pieces (i.e., a division between state and federal government, state and local, etc.) makes the analogy more appropriate. A great example would be the Hispanic vote and republicans. They are only now becomming a swing vote (similar to women, pro-gun people, black americans, etc.) but for several years they were not a force at all, yet Republicans were making attempts to listen to thier concerns and vote with their intersts because they saw potential in that demographic. It is now paying off for them. However this is beside the point, if you believe a vote doesn't matter why aren't you agreeing with pvn? As his ideology (anarcho capitalism) partially stems from that concept.
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#56
08-31-2007, 11:22 AM
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Re: Rudy G\'s Tough Talk
[ QUOTE ]
However, if Rudy wins and you voted for Ron Paul, don't have a coniption and start terrorizing your neighborhood because you no longer respect the government and don't want to "cede a great deal of discretion" to them. It's the law of the land; you can't change it so don't try. [/ QUOTE ] Oh, I can't? Darn it, I was stockpiling rocks to throw at government buildings in case Rudy McRomney won, I guess I'll have to stop doing that. I like how you assume anyone who doesn't like the government will want to "terrorize the neighborhood." Anyone who disagrees with the state is now a terrorist? Is that the new propaganda? So how's life as a government pawn? Do you enjoy dressing up as an anarchist and starting fights at anti-globalist demonstrations? Ever wonder why so many people are losing all respect for the police? It's because they believe their job is "To Serve And Protect" the state, not the people. And they've consistently shown a willingness to break the law in order to protect the state.
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#57
08-31-2007, 11:25 AM
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Re: Rudy G\'s Tough Talk
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] you can't change it so don't try [/ QUOTE ] Runs against the very idea of a funcational democracy. [/ QUOTE ] I was going to make some kind of thought-out reply, but I decided to delete it and ask you to explain to me how 1 voter can change the system. [/ QUOTE ] It's a logical consequence of assuming that the statement is false. If one vote has zero impact, than 1,000,000 votes has zero impact, which we know to be false. Don't mistake "small marginal" with "none", especially when the aggregate consists ONLY of small marginal effects added up.
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#58
08-31-2007, 11:28 AM
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Re: Rudy G\'s Tough Talk
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] However, if Rudy wins and you voted for Ron Paul, don't have a coniption and start terrorizing your neighborhood because you no longer respect the government and don't want to "cede a great deal of discretion" to them. It's the law of the land; you can't change it so don't try. [/ QUOTE ] Oh, I can't? Darn it, I was stockpiling rocks to throw at government buildings in case Rudy McRomney won, I guess I'll have to stop doing that. I like how you assume anyone who doesn't like the government will want to "terrorize the neighborhood." Anyone who disagrees with the state is now a terrorist? Is that the new propaganda? So how's life as a government pawn? Do you enjoy dressing up as an anarchist and starting fights at anti-globalist demonstrations? Ever wonder why so many people are losing all respect for the police? It's because they believe their job is "To Serve And Protect" the state, not the people. And they've consistently shown a willingness to break the law in order to protect the state. [/ QUOTE ] He's a brilliant debater, ain't he Ron? "If you don't like Rudy, don't start being a terrorist" ... as if those of us who don't like Rudy are just punch-drunk in love with the current administration ... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
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#59
08-31-2007, 11:34 AM
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Re: Rudy G\'s Tough Talk
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Ah the old "no one forced you to live here" argument. As if most people could just relocate to another country on a whim. [/ QUOTE ] So you can't relocate on a whim. The majority of people can't. That doesn't mean you can just abolish gov't on your own and do whatever it is that you want to do. Some people have trouble respecting authority. You can't change the system the way it is, so you might as well just accept it. [/ QUOTE ] You're still avoiding the real question - why do I have to have the same overlord that you do? Why does a guy in seattle have the same overlord as a guy in miami, while a guy about 10 miles away in vancouver has a different one? "That's the way it is" is not an answer. The status quo is not justified because it is the status quo. "just accept it" is not an answer. Some people have "trouble" "respecting" "authority" because that "authority" has *no legitimate authority*. Claiming that authority does not legitimately grant it, any more than me claiming I own the Empire State Building makes it true. Where do you think that authority flows from? [ QUOTE ] If you don't want to vote for Rudy, then don't vote for him. However, if Rudy wins and you voted for Ron Paul, don't have a coniption and start terrorizing your neighborhood because you no longer respect the government and don't want to "cede a great deal of discretion" to them. It's the law of the land; you can't change it so don't try. [/ QUOTE ] Wow. Anyone who doesn't agree with you must be a terrorist. Nice.
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#60
08-31-2007, 11:35 AM
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Re: Rudy G\'s Tough Talk
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] you can't change it so don't try [/ QUOTE ] Runs against the very idea of a funcational democracy. [/ QUOTE ] I was going to make some kind of thought-out reply, but I decided to delete it and ask you to explain to me how 1 voter can change the system. [/ QUOTE ] Thank you for highlighting one of the biggest flaws in democracy (not to mention the one most often lied about).
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