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#1
11-30-2007, 08:04 AM
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Re: Just A Reminder About Religious People
[ QUOTE ]
If someone says that he's a believer because he feels the touch of god, his belief is not logically falsifiable. So, you know, stop trying to falsify it. More importantly, IMO, don't call him a moron because he's using a different (yet equally valid) epistemology. [/ QUOTE ] agreed. 
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#2
11-30-2007, 08:37 AM
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Re: Just A Reminder About Religious People
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If someone says that he's a believer because he feels the touch of god, his belief is not logically falsifiable. So, you know, stop trying to falsify it. More importantly, IMO, don't call him a moron because he's using a different (yet equally valid) epistemology. [/ QUOTE ] agreed. [/ QUOTE ] I'm afraid I disagree. I have read the recent posts about intuition and logic. The problem which was addressed regarding the valid uses of intuition do not extend to being touched by god. We can use intuition to arrive at better conclusion's then with logic when the topics are knowable, and then only after a great deal of study. The claims that are made with regard to god are unknowable. We must indeed use logic to determine that what is presented to us as the word of god is indeed fabricated to at least some extent. Mistranslated or dileberately enhanced after the fact. You cannot know the authenticness of Bible in your heart, with out first having great understanding of lit. Moverover, there can be no experts on religion, perhaps religious studies. But the very nature of religion means it's out of grasp of what is knowable.
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#4
11-30-2007, 08:47 AM
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Re: Just A Reminder About Religious People
If religion isn't knowable, then I sit and wonder how come religious people know so much about it.
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#5
11-30-2007, 09:32 AM
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Re: Just A Reminder About Religious People
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If someone says that he's a believer because he feels the touch of god, his belief is not logically falsifiable. So, you know, stop trying to falsify it. More importantly, IMO, don't call him a moron because he's using a different (yet equally valid) epistemology. [/ QUOTE ] agreed. [/ QUOTE ] I'm afraid I disagree. I have read the recent posts about intuition and logic. The problem which was addressed regarding the valid uses of intuition do not extend to being touched by god. We can use intuition to arrive at better conclusion's then with logic when the topics are knowable, and then only after a great deal of study. The claims that are made with regard to god are unknowable. We must indeed use logic to determine that what is presented to us as the word of god is indeed fabricated to at least some extent. Mistranslated or dileberately enhanced after the fact. You cannot know the authenticness of Bible in your heart, with out first having great understanding of lit. [/ QUOTE ] i guess i don't see what (what we are talking about) has to do with intuition vs. logic. i agree with the jist of what you are saying, but i don't think it applies. the "believer" is not trying to reach a logical conclusion through intuition. he is STARTING OUT with an assumption that whatever he believes is true. you do the exact same thing when you believe that the world is exists outside of yourself and that what you see and hear and smell and taste and feel the touch of is indicative of reality.
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#6
11-30-2007, 08:45 AM
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Re: Just A Reminder About Religious People
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If someone says that he's a believer because he feels the touch of god, his belief is not logically falsifiable. So, you know, stop trying to falsify it. More importantly, IMO, don't call him a moron because he's using a different (yet equally valid) epistemology. [/ QUOTE ] agreed. [/ QUOTE ] I feel like its logically falsifiable. Don't knock my equaly valid epistemology. or what a load of tosh. Its not about falsifiability, if the believer recognises its a feely type of thing rather than a rational belief then bully for them but they cannot be taken seriously if they place their belief as more valid then others peoples feely beliefs. chez
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#7
11-30-2007, 08:50 AM
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Re: Just A Reminder About Religious People
[ QUOTE ]
Its not about falsifiability, if the believer recognises its a feely type of thing rather than a rational belief then bully for them but they cannot be taken seriously if they place their belief as more valid then others peoples feely beliefs. [/ QUOTE ] That's a common human failing, not a specifically theistic one.
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#8
11-30-2007, 09:16 AM
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Re: Just A Reminder About Religious People
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If someone says that he's a believer because he feels the touch of god, his belief is not logically falsifiable. So, you know, stop trying to falsify it. More importantly, IMO, don't call him a moron because he's using a different (yet equally valid) epistemology. [/ QUOTE ] agreed. [/ QUOTE ] I feel like its logically falsifiable. Don't knock my equaly valid epistemology. chez [/ QUOTE ] agree again. the bottom line is that to have any sort of belief, you must start out at some unprovable position. for instance: "i think the sky is blue, because i see it as blue." might be more 'logical' than "i think the sky is green, because i feel like it's green," but it isn't any more valid or provable. how do you know that your perception is accurate and another's is inaccurate? you don't know, unless you take some things as given. (in your case, your perception of the material world=reality. in his case, something else)
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#9
11-30-2007, 02:22 PM
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Re: Just A Reminder About Religious People
[ QUOTE ]
If the majority of theists are coming to their beliefs through faith and personal revelation, than picking on them for being illogical is completely misguided, akin to saying that a fish is defective because its gills don't work on dry land. If someone says that he's a believer because he feels the touch of god, his belief is not logically falsifiable. So, you know, stop trying to falsify it. More importantly, IMO, don't call him a moron because he's using a different (yet equally valid) epistemology. [/ QUOTE ] If I believe that 2+2=6 because of a personal revelation, that doesn't make it true. My belief is still subject to rational scrutiny, and people should hardly say "well, we have to respect his belief that 2+2=6." Further, if the beliefs people come to using a certain epistemology are varied and mutually exclusive, then that epistemology is less valid. In fact, we know that this method is invalid in the majority of cases due to that exclusivity. It's possible that in some tiny subset of cases the method is valid, but due to its terrible track record it's still nothing more than a lucky guess.
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