Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged

[Henry17]

What is this huge motive?

In your previous post you said it was to keep fish from going bust and thus maintain more tables. I have seen other people claim it is to increase rake. Neither of those make much sense for a major site.

[OutRaced]

Simple as this guys..

Losers ALWAYS think winners cheat or they lose because they are cheated. If all these LOSING poker players would put as much effort into improving their game as they put into this nonsense they might actually win. These players need to go over their own HH and figure out why they lose.

[OMFGWTF]

We need to call all the casinos in Vegas and Atlantic City and ask them to write down the results of every hand they deal for the next few years, or however long it takes to collect, say, 200M hands.

If we are to prove that -online- poker is rigged, you have to compare it to -offline- stats, right?

[StitchNV]

My post wasn’t really about satisfying one side of the fence as to the legitimacy of online poker sites RNGs.
It was about common guidelines that internet sites HAVE to follow if they are going to provide gambling/wagering services. (And the possibility of implementing stricter guidelines for poker.)

My point is simply that if the topic is so “up in the air.” Then wouldn’t it benefit both sides if there where a stricter legal medium?

Not even a legal system because that’s even a little extreme. The only reason I say “legal” is because that’s what worked for Nevada.

Hell even something like “PokerNanny” or the approval of some company or organization that dose nothing but proves the legitimacy of online poker.

“Play at our site because we are up to code on all legal standers.”

Or

“Play at our site because we are NPSW approved.”

And “I like to play at this site because they are up to code on all legal standers, or they are NPSW approved.”

That would give ammo to the ““pros”” in so that they could say something like “You’re a dummy because that sites up to legal code so they can’t be cheating.”
As apposed to “You just don’t like playing online because you’re not good as me.”

I’m sorry; I’m just thinking solution as apposed to complaining…

[ryanj247]

again i just want to say something, because i'm frustrated with how this thread has unfolded although naturally i expected it.

a winning player who is generally regarded as intelligent has ALREADY done a statistical analysis on a large number of hands. his conclusion: a significant result that favorites in all-in confrontations were winning less than expectation.

forget about compiling everyone's HH. i don't care about what kind of debate would go on after results were disclosed from any testing. i just want to see someone reproduce MT2R's test and confirm/deny the results he has already reported. or for that matter, just make a clear statement identifying the flaw in his testing method.

i'm pretty sure i have plenty of data. i just don't know how to do the testing myself. so, if anyone out there has that knowledge, and is willing, please just PM me and tell me where to send the HH.

[Henry17]

[ QUOTE ]

If we are to prove that -online- poker is rigged, you have to compare it to -offline- stats, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Any given question has a distribution which we could calculate and use.

[nineinchal]

[ QUOTE ]
i never made up facts .
and the logic is something you might not understand but it is perfect logic.

it all comes at the end to RISK ASSESMENT ... how much money will it be worth for someone to break into this system.

this is all i ever claimed .

if you admit it is possible, then we think the same .
the problem is that everybody ask for the proof that it is rigged while they should try and get a proof it is not !

and also for facts , the same way you dont know it is rigged for a fact , you also cant know it is legit for a fact.

Your reasons are much better:

1. they make much money without rigging...
2. they would not do that cause they might lose their buisness etc...

my answers:
1. guess what - they can make more if the rigg it.
2. people like you make them belive they can get away with anything...

so - here comes a story about absolute poker and instead of taking actions you all chat about it....

keep on chatting , it probably saves your weekly visit to the shrink


got that ? or should i explain ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the Absolute thread is what got me interested in this subject. But why stop at Absolute? There has to be some way that all sites can be put to the test.

Users like us have to have some assurances...

[nineinchal]

[ QUOTE ]
again i just want to say something, because i'm frustrated with how this thread has unfolded although naturally i expected it.

a winning player who is generally regarded as intelligent has ALREADY done a statistical analysis on a large number of hands. his conclusion: a significant result that favorites in all-in confrontations were winning less than expectation.

forget about compiling everyone's HH. i don't care about what kind of debate would go on after results were disclosed from any testing. i just want to see someone reproduce MT2R's test and confirm/deny the results he has already reported. or for that matter, just make a clear statement identifying the flaw in his testing method.

i'm pretty sure i have plenty of data. i just don't know how to do the testing myself. so, if anyone out there has that knowledge, and is willing, please just PM me and tell me where to send the HH.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, it really wasn't my intention of debating hand histories. In fact, hand history analysis is but one tool to use.

I am sure there are other questions to be asked, however, at this point, I am just seeking more insight. So keep putting up questions or post points that to be used in making a determination if a site is rigged or not.

[StitchNV]

[ QUOTE ]
We need to call all the casinos in Vegas and Atlantic City and ask them to write down the results of every hand they deal for the next few years, or however long it takes to collect, say, 200M hands.

If we are to prove that -online- poker is rigged, you have to compare it to -offline- stats, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't find it right now because my eyes hurt, but just so you know, you wouldn't have to call "Vegas" you'd just call the NGB and they'd be able to tell you... Every hand dealt for live gaming purposes must be under video surveillance, and accessible for review by a member of the NGC for up to at least 6 months.

All card decks used for live gaming purposes must be marked with implementation date, and retire date, as well as dealers’ initials. All card decks must be kept for up to 6 months in a retrievable onsite location for review by any member of the NGC.

If you wanna find it, be my guest.

NRS - Section 436

[Henry17]

If you are actually serious about this then.

1. Come up with a series of questions you want answered. Just stuff like is the game rigged is meaningless. You need more specific questions such as

i) are the starting hand distributions fair?
ii) do the results of heads up all in situations confirm to expected outcomes?
iii)etc..

Then once you have a set of questions pay someone with the required statistical skills to answer your specific questions.