Thoughts on PNL?

[Isura]

Pokey,

I think the problem with this (and most poker books) is that they don't go into any advanced strategies. So its helpful for someone picking up NLHE or wants to beat the small stakes for a marginal profit, but I've yet to see a book that goes into any advanced thinking on NL. Maybe bobbo's book if it ever gets out.. I mean there's a reason that books cost $30 while good NL coaching starts at ~$200/hr.

[Nikachu]

Looks like there aren't many posters here who have peeked into a live casino. Fact of the matter is that online poker is far more evolved and advanced. The online players are superior because live players go to a casino to gamble. Players playing $1/2 to $5/10 at a live casino play exactly like the morons at micro stakes online.

I havn't read the book but it most definately must be useful for a live game player where players are clueless and double and triple up over the stupidest hands. When you and a moron are 3 stacks deep... you need a plan to get it all in. You wont get it all in if you just 3/4 pot it over and over.

What it comes down to is that this book does not teach you how to beat advanced players. It teaches you how to effectively destroy live fish (or nl $0.01/0.02 online). The internet in general is a whole different ballgame.

[Ranma4703]

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What percentage of your opponents do you believe have figured out how you are sizing you raises?

[/ QUOTE ]It doesn't matter as long as it doesn't depend on our hand.

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Yes it does. If our opponents realize we are raising a set amount based on limpers, and they are 2+2'ers, they probably think that we are a 2+2 as well, and will give us more respect.

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you are overestimating the significance being linked w/these boards.

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If they do not realize we are raising based on limpers, and instead think we are raising based on hand strength, they will give us more action when we raise less, even with a higher quality hand.
Just because we aren't giving away any information doesn't mean that they won't think they are getting information, and if they think they are getting information they might act on it, and if we do not consider that possibility we will not properly interpret their actions.

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if they are making use of incorrect info, then this is a very good thing for us. no info is better than bad info

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Exactly. I'm not saying it is a bad thing if they think incorrect things, but rather we have to interpret their actions in the context of what they think about our hand, if they do think about our hand. If we raise to 4bb with no limpers on the button with 67s and it gets showed down, then next hand raise to 7bb in the c/o after 3 people limped to us with TT, they might think we raise large with our strong vulnerable PP, and next time we raise to 7$, they might try to take the pot away from us if overcards come. Might be thinking too deep for most opponents, but at higher levels and vs some opponents it is something to consider about your table image.

[AE6]

i want bobbo's book to come out soooo badly [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Sean Fraley]

Pokey, I assume from this post that you haven't read the ridiculously long thread in Books & Publications. The authors have made it a point to answer queries and criticism about the book and some clarification of some of the issues discussed here can be found there.

[Speedlimits]

This is why we need a real online player to write a book instead of these live newbs that play 10 hands an hour.

[Worm75]

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i want bobbo's book to come out soooo badly [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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According to Bobbo

come up with $750, and you can get a copy now..... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[BobboFitos]

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A few weeks ago I read Professional No-Limit Hold'Em Volume I. At the time, I honestly thought it was pretty bad in its advice. Since then I've had some time to reflect on the subject matter and I've come to the conclusion that I was right all along.


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It's BAD??? I disagree, I think PNL is the best NLH book that has been published. Not close here.

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Am I the only one who found this book reasonably unhelpful? I mean, who exactly are Matt, Sunny, and Ed playing against that let them get away with this crap? Sure, everybody limp-reraises KK from UTG on occasion -- when table conditions are perfect, when there's some aggro-monkey in LP who can't resist raising to punish limpers, etc. -- but as a general rule?? Where are these idiots who let you raise to 8 BBs with rockets and then don't turn around and recognize that something odd is going on when we minraise 87s?


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That isn't what they say. Those are some plays in certain circumstances which could work. Everything is contextual.

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The main theme of the book seems to be this whole Pot-to-Stack Ratio stuff. Yes, it's very nice and interesting and all, but stack decisions are such a small part of my typical game that I can't imagine building my strategy around them. Given that 99% of the time you are fighting for a smaller-than-all-in pot, shouldn't we be paying a great deal of attention to these other hands?


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THIS is a great point. Basically, they are all about the "big" pot, where most pots (not 99%, more like 70%) are small pots. And yes, those affect your earn incredibly. That said, constantly thinking about SPR is vital.

**Fwiw, I have a small amount of SPR stuff in my book. What's funny is before PNL was published I sent a chapter to Matt Flynn to read, and it was all about playing draws; and incidentally, I based it all upon SPR. So, we both wrote about the same thing and came to similar conclusions without ever referring to one another along these lines. Does go to show how vital it is, whether you know it or not.

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OK, I get the point -- "if it's all going into the middle, you should have a plan." Fine. But why are we designing strategies around my betting double-pot on the flop, pot-and-a-half on the turn, and then pot on the river? Do any of us play against opponents who will let us do that on a regular basis? I have a hard enough time getting the live ones to pay off pot-on-the-flop, pot-on-the-turn, let alone a river bet as well. Are your opponents so dazzlingly stupid that they won't notice that you've changed your usual "3/4ths-pot flop, 1/2-pot turn" into "double-pot flop, pot-and-a-half turn"? Mine don't seem to be.



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Yeah, this is fair. I think sometimes you can't aim to put your stack in there, but you should aim to get the pot as big as possible. ie, pot pot pot. if your opponents ARE dumb enough though, by all means charge them.

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Look, I'm all in favor of planning and I'm a big fan of extracting value, but we've also got to be realistic. In the games we play, we simply can't get away with most of these moves. Our opponents are not blind and not unthinking; they actually pay SOME attention to our behavior. I really want to get something useful out of this book; if you liked it or found it beneficial, please let me know what it was that helped you -- I want to share in the intellectual bounty!

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reread the REM part, I liked that the best.

[BobboFitos]

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This is why we need a real online player to write a book instead of these live newbs that play 10 hands an hour.

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fwiw, Matt Flynn is an incredible NL player, who has played big games online as well. I've played 10-20 NL live with him and he is an amazing player.

Sunny as well is an accomplished NL player who has played for some time and posted for a while. I am not sure if he's played much online but he's certainly a very solid player.

Ed Miller is a strong limit player who was brought on to help with the writing. He's obviously brilliant and can WRITE well.

I think the pedigree of the authors shouldn't be in question.

[atmstuck]

We only need one bible, which is NL:T&P. I wonder when will there be a book close to that level released, probably never