Theory behind big Add-On's?

[Lottery Larry]

No, you idiot:

1) I meant your blinds structure, not your buy-in details (I know I'm stupid, but I can freakin' READ....)

2) I meant why make it T20a when you can go T25 and dump the wannabe-reds?

[pfapfap]

Whoah, dude, I didn't realize you were legitimately upset with me. No reason for it, dial it back.

[ QUOTE ]
No, you idiot:
1) I meant your blinds structure, not your buy-in details (I know I'm stupid, but I can freakin' READ....)

[/ QUOTE ]

Compare and contrast with this:

[ QUOTE ]
Did you ever post your final rebuy structure

[/ QUOTE ]

I must have mistunderstood. Can you see why? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Anyway, I did post it in some other thread somewhere, but here it is:

20/20
20/40
Break (dinner)
40/80
60/120
Break (rebuys done, do addons)
100/200 (20a)
200/400 (40a)
Break
300/600 (60a)
400/800 (80a)
Break
600/1200 (100a)
800/1600 (200a)
Break
1000/2000 (300a)
1500/3000 (500a)
2500/5000 (1000a)
Break
5k/10k (2ka)
10k/20k (4ka)
20k/40k (8ka)

And that's as far as I've done because we've never needed it. Generally an hour between breaks (later rounds are a little shorter). We usually start by 7pm, most bust out between 10pm-midnight, final table can last a while.

[ QUOTE ]
2) I meant why make it T20a when you can go T25 and dump the wannabe-reds?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah. Well, I don't do standard colors (it's the Bay Area, we're allowed). I use T20 as my lowest chip (used to use reds, hence my confusion, thought you had seen a reference somewhere), again to help with the illusion that we're using lots of big money. Nobody carries $25 bills. $20 is a real-world denomination that's familiar and comfortable. Also, it worked well in creating the structure, which by now has been tweaked to be near ideal for our group and our goals. Might not work as well for others, but good thing I'm not doing this for others. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[pfapfap]

One more advantage to using T20... (10) 20s, (8) 100s, (2) 500s. Voila, 2k in chips, 20 chips. Very easy to rack up ahead of time. But I know I'm in the vast minority with regards to preferring T20 chips. Part of it is probably because where I play, they have $20 in circulation (not $25), and their tourneys also use T20. Its' what I grew up with, so it's familiar and comfortable. Could also be why I try to breast-feed my dealers.

[Small Fry]

Pfap, Do have an idea of what the average chip stack might be, or how many chips are in play, at the start of round 5?

From previous conversations I'm thinking the ave. is about 7000-8000. But maybe I'm way underestimating rebuys. (I picked 25 buy ins, 25 rebuys and 25 add ons. 175,000/25= 7000) I'm trying to get a feel for how chip stacks compare with the blinds / antes in rounds 5-7.

If I'm correct then players have about 37x bb in round 5. Round 6 cuts that in half. Under my current structure I'm about 55x bb starting out after the rebuy period. I don't have any ante either which eats away at your stack big time. (antes are like Chinese water torture or a really bitter ex wife)

My current structure is $25/ T1000 and rebuys are the same. I'm looking at: Buy in $15 / T1000, Rebuy $15 / T1000, Add on $15 / T2000. I'm giving up some cash on the front end but hopefully making it up, plus a little more, with the Add Ons. Rebuys might also increase with the lower cost. My goal is to give players more room ,or at least keep it the same, to play in the 2-3 rounds after the rebuy / add on period is over.

I have a feeling I don't have anywhere near enough chips for this. This could cost me a fortune.

[pfapfap]

When rebuys were at busto, we generally had as many rebuys as buyins, give or take. This past one, we had 1.5x as many, but I don't know if that will grow or shrink (I expect grow). So average stack was 8k going into round 5.

Yeah, the jump between 5 & 6 is big, but I don't see an easy way around it, and it seems to work fairly well regardless. Eliminations happen fairly steadily throughout, perhaps weighted a little bit in 5 &6. Interestingly, the longest period without an elimination was from Level 11 to Level 14, four of us playing, average stack of 50k, with me getting eliminated at the 5k/10k level. Two of us had been pushing for a chop for at least half an hour leading up to that, since it was really just crapshoot time.

I've certainly been on a chip buying rampage this past month, but there's also the wonder of higher denomination chips.

As to your $25 or $15 buyins... doesn't making change take up a lot of time and distract from your play? $20s have worked for me quite well.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whoah, dude, I didn't realize you were legitimately upset with me. No reason for it, dial it back.



[/ QUOTE ]No, you idiot:
1) I meant your blinds structure, not your buy-in details

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't at all upset- you're just not used to my sarcasm! Besides, any chance to bust your chops, I'll take... :P

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
Part of it is probably because where I play, they have $20 in circulation (not $25), and their tourneys also use T20. Its' what I grew up with, so it's familiar and comfortable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you're using T20 and T100, then ignore what the idiot was babbling about earlier.


[ QUOTE ]
Could also be why I try to breast-feed my dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

way WAYYY too much information, dude! :P

[pfapfap]

Hee, ok, all is good. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Small Fry]

[ QUOTE ]
As to your $25 or $15 buyins... doesn't making change take up a lot of time and distract from your play? $20s have worked for me quite well.

[/ QUOTE ]

A little. But most are used to it so have correct change or I give out lot's of 5's for change so they have it for the rebuy. And if I do have to dig up change then I get them their chips and then get the change when I get around to it.

Buy in used to be $20 but i upped it to $25. I'm looking for a small bump again and since the add on is almost mandatory for most then they're basically committing $30 (15 buy in + 15 add on) a bunch will commit more thanks to rebuys. And the lucky few get in for a nice discount over the old fee. But good point - going back to $20 might be enough of a drop and will make it easier.

[CardSharkGames]

The book <u>The Poker Tournament Formula</u> -- whether you buy the logic of the "formula" or not -- has the most comprehensive analysis I've seen of rebuys, add-ons, the theory behind them, and how to take maximum advantage of them.

An interesting aspect of a big add-on not mentioned in that book (or anywhere else I've seen) is that it can substantially reduce the percentage chip advantage which those with higher stacks had before the add-on. For more on that, see this.