Please post your favorite Bible verses here

[stormstarter28]

"But if He knew they would destroy the world, why would He allow them to be born in the first place? Since God takes such an exception to people bent on destroying His world, He could have arranged things so that they would not even get born.

I can think of no explanation that would justify the killing of babies by God, except for one: That God is, as I said numerous times already, the supreme sadist."

Perhaps God allows the world to run its course, but intervenes when he chooses. What if the babies he killed get to go to heaven, but wouldn't have been born otherwise...isn't being created and going to heaven better than never being born and never existing?

[vhawk01]

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"But if He knew they would destroy the world, why would He allow them to be born in the first place? Since God takes such an exception to people bent on destroying His world, He could have arranged things so that they would not even get born.

I can think of no explanation that would justify the killing of babies by God, except for one: That God is, as I said numerous times already, the supreme sadist."

Perhaps God allows the world to run its course, but intervenes when he chooses. What if the babies he killed get to go to heaven, but wouldn't have been born otherwise...isn't being created and going to heaven better than never being born and never existing?

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Thus the infinite number of babies born every day.

[Mickey Brausch]

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What if the babies [God] killed get to go to heaven, but wouldn't have been born otherwise... Isn't being created and going to heaven better than never being born and never existing?

[/ QUOTE ]So He kills 'em off, and, through their deaths, He tortures the parents and the family for the rest of their lives.

If the parents were assured Heaven, one could argue that the parents are getting infinite time in bliss, which somehow beats seventy-whatever years of misery on Earth.

But the parents may become sinners later on! (Because of their grief even.) They are tortured NOW, and so lead miserable lives, and then they get Hell as well.

Only a supreme sadist would do things like this.

If, on the other hand, there is a supreme morality, beyond human understanding at work here, a divine morality which we cannot fathom, and according to which the killing of babies, the torture of parents, etc, is fully justified, then this is an impasse: How are are supposed to be judged on specific criteria X and then be told that the applicable criteria are Y?

We could be violating Y, without even knowing it. (I mean, if it's actually OK in God's value system to kill babies, I bet I'm a sinner already.)

You can see the myriad logical dead-ends your premises lead us into.

Mickey Brausch

[madnak]

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I've read SitNHit's posts before, and just because he is close minded on the issues and I am not doesn't mean I will become atheist. I am trying to learn specifically to strengthen my faith, not to go against it. I am very dedicated to following Christ and have no doubt in my mind that I will follow him until the day I die...I respect your opinions on the matter, but I think if you really knew me you wouldn't be saying these things. I think I am rare in that I am a very skeptical, rational, and logical person, yet I still have strong faith in God. I want to learn what nonbelievers and other religions believe so I can understand my own faith even more.

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That sounds a lot like the young me (but without the arrogance).

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I meant that I am here to understand other people's perspectives.

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That's what led most of us to become atheists.

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1)I cannot fathom this world being an accident.

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Is God the only alternative?

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2)I have heard many testimonies of faith in God and Jesus changing people's lives in a positive way (ex: my friend's parents both had cancer, were both Christians who prayed for healing, and were miraculously healed)

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How much time do you spend around Christians? Do you spend an equal amount of time around Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Baha'i, etc? Many of them have similar accounts. Why do you choose only Christianity?

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3)Since I have become a Christ follower, I have seen positive changes in my life that weren't there before, and wouldn't be without God (yes, I know I have no PROOF that God made the changes, but I don't need proof to believe it).

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Maybe you were responsible for the positive change in your own life. Maybe you made choices to be a more giving, compassionate person. Maybe you found a sense of meaning for yourself. Or maybe your connection with God is valid, but the very same God helps those of other religions. Look at the Buddhists and tell me their lives aren't enriched by their beliefs.

[27offsuit]

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"Atheists shun the GOTB because (for one reason) he is a mass murderer."

Here is my take on that...for the record, I am a Christian, but I am not here to argue with all you nonbelievers, just to offer my perspective on this issue. I believe that in the times of the Old Testament, God was an angry God and that He was full of wrath. I also believe that God is completely just, and if He did kill all of these people, He had a justified reason in doing so. Just because we can't understand why He did this doesn't make it wrong...there are countless reasons He may have done this. (Example: being all knowing, perhaps He knew these people He killed would destroy the world, or something of the sort. I'm not saying this is the case, it's just an example of why God would do something that is justified but we can't understand.)
Back to the main point...I believe He used to be full of wrath, but He sent Jesus to die for our sins, and since this ultimate sacrifice has occurred, His wrath is subdued and He is now a God of mercy. I believe the world is much worse now than it was in the time of the Old Testament, and that if He were still a God of wrath, we would all have been destroyed by now. (Before some of you freak out and rip my post apart, keep in mind that I am relatively young, I am new to theological arguments, and I am trying to learn, so go easy on me.)

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This is funny in a very, very sad way.

[bunny]

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This is a good point, but I think I didn't make myself clear before. I'm not saying I refuse to accept anything that doesn't support my current beliefs...I meant that I am here to understand other people's perspectives. I didn't say I was "searching for evidence", but I didn't make myself clear. If something convinced me that God didn't exist, or that the Bible was wrong, I do not think I would ignore it. I just don't believe that will ever happen. If this is illogical, I will stop claiming to be logical.

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It's not illogical - I think it's the only sensible position for you to adopt. (Many atheists say they would believe in God if offered cast-iron proof, yet dont believe that will ever happen).

[Magic_Man]

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This is a good point, but I think I didn't make myself clear before. I'm not saying I refuse to accept anything that doesn't support my current beliefs...I meant that I am here to understand other people's perspectives. I didn't say I was "searching for evidence", but I didn't make myself clear. If something convinced me that God didn't exist, or that the Bible was wrong, I do not think I would ignore it. I just don't believe that will ever happen. If this is illogical, I will stop claiming to be logical.

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It's not illogical - I think it's the only sensible position for you to adopt. (Many atheists say they would believe in God if offered cast-iron proof, yet dont believe that will ever happen).

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason it is illogical is because you have no reason to believe in the first place. Actually, it is either illogical or inconsistent. To continue the ideas above:

Atheists say: "I have no reason to believe. I will believe if I see convincing proof."

(Reasonable) Theists say: "My position is just as logical as yours. I have no reason to disbelieve. I will stop believing if I see convincing proof."

But then Atheists say: "But that could apply to many imaginary ideas. You have no reason to disbelieve in unicorns, or invisible fire-breathing dragons. And yet you don't believe in those things. Why do you choose to believe in God but not the others?"

To which most Theists eventually reply: "I don't know. I simply feel it."


This is why the main idea is illogical/inconsistent from the start. Unless you believe in EVERYTHING for which there is no falsifiability, then choosing to believe in only God "until you see convincing proof otherwise" appears foolish.

[bunny]

I meant it is logical to continue his belief. I agree with you it is illogical to believe for no reason, I disagree with you that personal experience is not a reason (and a rational one at that).

I believed in God because of personal experience - I couldnt find any explanation for my experiences other than God, despite considerable reflection and an emotional attachment to atheism. As long as your God-belief doesnt contradict other well-justified beliefs, it is rational to count subjective, personal experience as evidence. It is just weak evidence by its nature.

[Magic_Man]

I posit that it is illogical to choose God as an explanation of particularly baffling personal experiences if you have not done so to that point. Try a bayesian approach:

P[(God did it) | (No current explanation)] = {P[(No current explanation) | (God did it)] * P[(God did it)]} / P[No current explanation]


Now, assume that you start as a non-believer, and decide to think everything through as rationally and logically as possible, avoiding the influence of the evangelists and believers around you. P[(God did it)] will be so infinitesimally small for such a person that it dominates all other terms. In fact, P[(No current explanation) | (God did it)] may be tiny as well.

Put another way, with no math: If you have found a rational, no-God-required explanation for every other problem you've encountered, then it is HIGHLY likely that you will find such an explanation again. God of the Gaps is a foolish argument.

[bunny]

You misunderstand. I dont mean something baffling happened which I couldnt explain without God - that hasnt happened to me so far. What I mean is I felt a very real, genuine connection with another intelligent entity.

I spent several years ascribing all the obvious causes to it, but it eventually reached a point where I discovered I believed it was God. I never chose to believe in God (and in fact it annoyed me for quite some time as I had a certain emotional attachment to atheism, not to mention a hostile family to "confess my faith" to).

I dont understand people who talk about choosing beliefs - I cant choose what to believe, I have no control over when something becomes a belief. I can choose what evidence to look into, I can choose what to think about, but I cant just snap my fingers and say "OK, I deem this a belief".

My response ten years ago was to accept the fact that I believed in something with no objective evidence (though I had subjective evidence) and to test that belief in the only way I knew how - namely by considering whether it led to a logical contradiction, or whether it clashed with other better-justified beliefs. The "best" candidate I could find was the problem of evil. I never found a satisfactory solution to that - perhaps that contributed to my losing my faith or perhaps not. All I know is that I no longer find the God explanation as plausible as the self-delusion explanation.

EDIT: I still believe it is possible to be a rational theist, however rare it may be.