AP, rigged, etc. #8981.4 - the plot thickens

[waveydavey]

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Off topic question.

I'm new to this site and have only been following these AP threads, but I just discovered what I believe to be a security breach in another poker client and would like to know where to start a thread on this. Can anybody point me in the right direction?

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Start a new thread obv. Expect to get flamed if you have no evidence whatsoever or a tiny hand database sample size etc. etc.

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Clearly you didn't read the part of my post where I asked where to start such a thread, obv. But you're also right about getting flamed, even though I have perfect evidence. I'm a small time player and I don't need people jumping all over me telling me that I shouldn't be doing this or that anyway. So let's just say [censored] it and get back to the AP deal. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Forget I even mentioned it.

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Tease.

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It was late, (4AM). I needed to get to bed. I slept on it. It may or may not be as big a deal as I thought. Someone PMed me with interest. I will start another thread if it seems appropriate, following advice from this respected person. I apologize for my post. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[timmay28]

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If I had a superuser account and I wanted to go unnoticed, I would play SNGs. I haven't played SNGs for a long time, but last I checked those were not usually datamined (except by sharkscope, which doesn't even cover absolute). Do you realize how easy it would be to make 6k/day playing SNGs and be completely under the radar? Nobody would miss the $. That being said, I think its important not to discount the possibility that many millions have been stolen. Sure you'd notice it if it were all from HSNL, because that world is small. But there are a TON of other ways.

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Um, SNGs get to push/fold preflop really fast, so I'd think they would be just about the worst place for a superuser.

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I wonder if even a superuser would go on lengthy losing streaks in turbo sng's.

[NoSetNoBet]

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I wonder if even a superuser would go on lengthy losing streaks in turbo sng's.

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lolz

[zen_rounder]

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If I had a superuser account and I wanted to go unnoticed, I would play SNGs. I haven't played SNGs for a long time, but last I checked those were not usually datamined (except by sharkscope, which doesn't even cover absolute). Do you realize how easy it would be to make 6k/day playing SNGs and be completely under the radar? Nobody would miss the $. That being said, I think its important not to discount the possibility that many millions have been stolen. Sure you'd notice it if it were all from HSNL, because that world is small. But there are a TON of other ways.

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Um, SNGs get to push/fold preflop really fast, so I'd think they would be just about the worst place for a superuser.

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I wonder if even a superuser would go on lengthy losing streaks in turbo sng's.

[/ QUOTE ]usaully those things suck for variance,if you could see the cards youd still lose a few of them id imagine(, as they are sucj pushfest/crapshoots anyway. id imagine super user would stick to MTT& CASH GAMES [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[pr0crast]

You don't get to push/fold so fast in HU SNGs, folks. It's like playing HU cash except you are guaranteed their stack, they can't just get up and leave.

[timmay28]

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You don't get to push/fold so fast in HU SNGs, folks. It's like playing HU cash except you are guaranteed their stack, they can't just get up and leave.

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yeah HU wouldnt be a problem, meant to ask if he'd still go on losing spells in 9 man turbos even assuming he's competent.

[LeezZard]

So when we make the movie, who's gonna contact Steve Zahn?

[Todpullen]

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If I had a superuser account and I wanted to go unnoticed, I would play SNGs. I haven't played SNGs for a long time, but last I checked those were not usually datamined (except by sharkscope, which doesn't even cover absolute). Do you realize how easy it would be to make 6k/day playing SNGs and be completely under the radar? Nobody would miss the $. That being said, I think its important not to discount the possibility that many millions have been stolen. Sure you'd notice it if it were all from HSNL, because that world is small. But there are a TON of other ways.

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Um, SNGs get to push/fold preflop really fast, so I'd think they would be just about the worst place for a superuser.

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I wonder if even a superuser would go on lengthy losing streaks in turbo sng's.

[/ QUOTE ]usaully those things suck for variance,if you could see the cards youd still lose a few of them id imagine(, as they are sucj pushfest/crapshoots anyway. id imagine super user would stick to MTT& CASH GAMES [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

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That would be helpful in disguising the fact that you could see their hole cards - it would be hard to see the cheating amongst the turbo SnG 'lottery' variance.

[PoorSkillz]

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If I had a superuser account and I wanted to go unnoticed, I would play SNGs. I haven't played SNGs for a long time, but last I checked those were not usually datamined (except by sharkscope, which doesn't even cover absolute). Do you realize how easy it would be to make 6k/day playing SNGs and be completely under the radar? Nobody would miss the $. That being said, I think its important not to discount the possibility that many millions have been stolen. Sure you'd notice it if it were all from HSNL, because that world is small. But there are a TON of other ways.

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Um, SNGs get to push/fold preflop really fast, so I'd think they would be just about the worst place for a superuser.

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I wonder if even a superuser would go on lengthy losing streaks in turbo sng's.

[/ QUOTE ]usaully those things suck for variance,if you could see the cards youd still lose a few of them id imagine(, as they are sucj pushfest/crapshoots anyway. id imagine super user would stick to MTT& CASH GAMES [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

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Isn't there higher variance in MTT's than SNG's? Sure a superuser wouldn't be able win SNG's everytime, just as he wouldn't be able to win MTT's everytime, but he would still easily be able to win a majority of the time. You can't just automatically rule out SNG's.

[Lee Jones]

Quoting a poster about Mike Paulle's claim that he saw open hole cards on PokerStars at the WSOP...

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saw the open client in Poker Stars. I don't know anything about Absolute software or any of the principals involved.

If this is true it would mean that Stars is lying because they claim this is totally impossible. I think he is probably mistaken and was probably just watching a final table replay or something.


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Hi folks -
I've been staying out of this because I've had nothing useful to add. Suddenly, I do.

Nobody at PokerStars can see the players' hole cards during a hand. They can't now and they never could. Not me (when I worked for PokerStars), not the owner, not the programmers. [1]

I was at the WSOP when Mike Paulle was there working for PokerStars. I can think of two possible things that Mike saw that he might mistake for an "open cards" client:

1. PokerStars staff use a hand history replayer called Poker Villain. Of course, everybody's Aunt Susie has one of those now, but back then (2004, I believe) it was a big deal. It's possible that he saw such a display on somebody's laptop screen and thought he was seeing live hole cards.

2. PokerStars simulcast the final table of the main event onto its client that year. [2] We had set up special software for this purpose. We were not able to see the players' hands, of course, but again, Mike might have seen a table image with hands displayed that could have confused him to think he was seeing live hole cards from the PokerStars client.

That's it. In short, I'm not sure what Mike Paulle saw, but what I know he didn't see was open hole cards on the PokerStars client during live play.

I will bet my professional reputation on that.

Regards, Lee

P.S. Just as I was getting ready to post this, PokerStars got an email back from Mike Paulle with a retraction of sorts, and they asked me to include that here. The exact text of Mike's email, unedited, is included here:

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If i say areplay and not live action, I wouldn't know
the difference. Feel free to use that as a retraction.

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[1] It is, of course, possible in theory that PokerStars has written such software since I left its employ in April. I'm prepared to bet 100% of my bankroll that they didn't do that.

[2] I know that seems impossible to believe now, with the carefully choreographed and paid-for press coverage. But those three years ago are a lifetime before now. Back then, it was the wild west and PokerStars' influence on the field gave us an important entry into the main event final table milieu.