Flop Top 2: My line?

AceKQJT · #1 06-09-2006, 03:56 PM

I know the PF limp is poor (My VP$IP runs around 19 ) but I was card dead....Post-flop: I put him on TPWK. With no draws on the board for the flop, I was afraid that a 3/4 pot bet on the turn or river would push him off a weak King, but he may c/r a weaker 2 pr or even a strong K on the river...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP2 ($17.05)
MP3 ($71.85)
CO ($40)
Hero ($56.90)
SB ($99.30)
BB ($99)
UTG ($97.50)
UTG+1 ($107.75)
MP1 ($68.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, MP1 calls $1, MP2 calls $1, MP3 calls $1, CO (poster) checks, Hero calls $1, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($7) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 bets $5, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls $5, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: ($17) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $10, MP1 calls $10.

River: ($37) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $15, MP1 calls $15.

Final Pot: $67

Results in white below: 
MP1 has Qc Ks (one pair, kings).
Hero has 8c Kh (two pair, kings and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins $67.

Mik1w · #2 06-09-2006, 04:07 PM

I don't know why but before I know what I'm doing I've already selected the text and seen the results.

Anyway... yeah the pre flop limp isn't that great, especially with your short stack. On the flop... meh. On this flop your hand needs pretty much no protection, by the time it comes to you to act, villan has at most 3 outs, sometimes 2, although they won't be obvious when they come.

I think Id play this in the same way, looks like some good value betting although I'd make it $25 or more on the river.

Al_Money · #3 06-09-2006, 04:10 PM

Raise flop for value. Don't show results.

Grunch · #4 06-09-2006, 04:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know the PF limp is poor (My VP$IP runs around 19 ) but I was card dead

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a problem with tilt. It's probably a leak for you.

I don't get the flop slowplay. He either has nothing & won't give any more action anyway, or has something and will call a raise. How can not betting when you have the best hand be the best play?

Mik1w · #5 06-09-2006, 04:14 PM

hmm... but what is the effect of raising for value on hands we beat? I think that lets a lot of weak hands off, when they will rather pay small installments for a showdown.

actually, I guess it depends on reads and what the table image of OP is.

Mik1w · #6 06-09-2006, 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know the PF limp is poor (My VP$IP runs around 19 ) but I was card dead

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a problem with tilt. It's probably a leak for you.

I don't get the flop slowplay. He either has nothing & won't give any more action anyway, or has something and will call a raise. How can not betting when you have the best hand be the best play?

[/ QUOTE ]offsetting bets on a very safe board sometimes gets more value?

Al_Money · #7 06-09-2006, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hmm... but what is the effect of raising for value on hands we beat? I think that lets a lot of weak hands off, when they will rather pay small installments for a showdown.

actually, I guess it depends on reads and what the table image of OP is.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really think a typical villain is laying down TPGK here? If he happens to have worse than that, so be it, we aren't getting paid much anyways.

AceKQJT · #8 06-09-2006, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise flop for value. Don't show results.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not showing results has as much effect on an analysis as showing the results. You end up with a lot of "Ok, so you flopped 2 pair and ran into a set, get over it!" type crap, and folks automatically assume you lost the hand (which could alter their analysis of the hand).

In some cases the results should be left out. In this case I don't believe that. The results are hidden. You are free to form your opinions without looking.

As far as raising the flop, I feel like that may be counter-productive here. There aren't any draws on the board, There is one player left to act behind me. I welcome his call with mid pair. If he was c/r a set, my raise doesn't stop that. I can raise the turn and get more value, I think, and the pot isn't so big on the turn that I will hate turning loose of this if something weird happens.

I will have to think about that a bit more though...thanks for your input.

Casey

J. Sawyer · #9 06-09-2006, 04:33 PM

definitely raise that flop for value, you are way ahead of most of his range, and he will want to see a showdown with most of his range.

Mik1w · #10 06-09-2006, 04:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hmm... but what is the effect of raising for value on hands we beat? I think that lets a lot of weak hands off, when they will rather pay small installments for a showdown.

actually, I guess it depends on reads and what the table image of OP is.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really think a typical villain is laying down TPGK here? If he happens to have worse than that, so be it, we aren't getting paid much anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rarely he will lay it down. When he doesn't on the flop, do you think he will to a 2/3 bet on the turn with the big pot?

I just think that when way ahead like now, offset betting into a small pot is better at gaining value. I'm sure 80% of villans with top pair will call the $10 turn bet OP used with the intention of getting a cheap showdown, now OP can bet very large on the river and deny them that.

I think raising on the flop is ok but sometimes will not get the most out of a villan who is not nessecarily a good player.