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#31
10-03-2007, 01:36 AM
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Re: 4bet bluff vs 2p2er flops top pair
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] agreed, i think sometimes he calls with AQ/KQ/AJ hands, but it's absurd to say he calls with his whole 3-betting range. too early for results? [/ QUOTE ] want to bet on this? [/ QUOTE ] yeh maybe, but how would either prove it, and how much we talkin? 
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#32
10-03-2007, 01:36 AM
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Re: 4bet bluff vs 2p2er flops top pair
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] agreed, i think sometimes he calls with AQ/KQ/AJ hands, but it's absurd to say he calls with his whole 3-betting range. too early for results? [/ QUOTE ] want to bet on this? [/ QUOTE ] yeh maybe, but how would either prove it, and how much we talkin? [/ QUOTE ] as much as you want and we can ask pudge
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#33
10-03-2007, 01:37 AM
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Re: 4bet bluff vs 2p2er flops top pair
ugh at this hand in general...
raising A2s UTG with frequent 3bettor in position 4bet bluffing a 3bet of UTG luckboxing your way to the best hand (prob)
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#34
10-03-2007, 01:41 AM
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Re: 4bet bluff vs 2p2er flops top pair
[ QUOTE ]
ugh at this hand in general... raising A2s UTG with frequent 3bettor in position 4bet bluffing a 3bet of UTG luckboxing your way to the best hand (prob) [/ QUOTE ] He 3bets a lot but not a ridiculous amount. Also you sort of contradict yourself. You think my opening raise is bad because I get 3bet a lot, yet you don't like my 4bet because you think he is showing a lot of strength 3betting an UTG raise. If he 3bets a ton then I don't get why the 4bet is bad, and if he doesn't then I don't see why the opening raise is bad.
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#35
10-03-2007, 01:41 AM
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Re: 4bet bluff vs 2p2er flops top pair
[ QUOTE ]
I expect him to fold everything but AK/JJ+ [/ QUOTE ] seems like a pretty std WA/WB situation. No real reason to bet. This is based on the assumption that: prob(villain calling a push with KK-JJ or villain having AK)<prob(calling a weak bet on the turn/river or taking a stab himself) seriously guys a push? seems like FPS to me
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#36
10-03-2007, 01:43 AM
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Re: 4bet bluff vs 2p2er flops top pair
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] ugh at this hand in general... raising A2s UTG with frequent 3bettor in position 4bet bluffing a 3bet of UTG luckboxing your way to the best hand (prob) [/ QUOTE ] He 3bets a lot but not a ridiculous amount. Also you sort of contradict yourself. You think my opening raise is bad because I get 3bet a lot, yet you don't like my 4bet because you think he is showing a lot of strength 3betting an UTG raise. If he 3bets a ton then I don't get why the 4bet is bad, and if he doesn't then I don't see why the opening raise is bad. [/ QUOTE ] the 4bet is bad.
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#37
10-03-2007, 01:44 AM
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Re: 4bet bluff vs 2p2er flops top pair
Why is this a disaster if the flop gets checked. In fact, this may be one of the rare sports where letting villain find a spot to bluff may work in our favor. We aren't getting much if any value from a flop bet, the same applies on the turn.
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#38
10-03-2007, 01:45 AM
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Re: 4bet bluff vs 2p2er flops top pair
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] agreed, i think sometimes he calls with AQ/KQ/AJ hands, but it's absurd to say he calls with his whole 3-betting range. too early for results? [/ QUOTE ] want to bet on this? [/ QUOTE ] yeh maybe, but how would either prove it, and how much we talkin? [/ QUOTE ] as much as you want and we can ask pudge [/ QUOTE ] sorry to be a nit, i've lost enough today already, hows a hundo sound? transfer over stars/ft will be fine i'm sure. remember this is his whole range, i.e if there is one hand he 3-bets and sometimes folds to this size raise, i would win the bet, you obv win if this is not the case. probably best if we ask pudge to pm us both for the answer rather than on here. deal?
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#39
10-03-2007, 01:55 AM
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Re: 4bet bluff vs 2p2er flops top pair
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] ugh at this hand in general... raising A2s UTG with frequent 3bettor in position 4bet bluffing a 3bet of UTG luckboxing your way to the best hand (prob) [/ QUOTE ] He 3bets a lot but not a ridiculous amount. Also you sort of contradict yourself. You think my opening raise is bad because I get 3bet a lot, yet you don't like my 4bet because you think he is showing a lot of strength 3betting an UTG raise. If he 3bets a ton then I don't get why the 4bet is bad, and if he doesn't then I don't see why the opening raise is bad. [/ QUOTE ] honestly, in general, i don't like your opening raise without a huge fish in the blinds. (this is not a nit saying this) Its hard to win a big pot OOP with A2 the 4bet bluff is bad b/c if he is positionally aware he should be 3betting less of your range, so he's 3betting about (88-AA, AK, AQ, random suited stuff every once in awhile) He's calling a lot of that range. Not to mention you have terrible equity against that range. Bad equity + not folding a lot of his range = bad bluff. Also the 4bet is small enough where you might not fold some hands you were expecting. the open is bad when an freq 3bettor is behind b/c you are either going to toss chips away pre, call and have no idea where you stand and be OOP, or be making bluffs when you really have no idea if he is strong or weak. Tightening up your pf range temporarily (w/o the 3bettor noticing hopefully) will increase your expectation vs a freq 3 bettor. Once its become obv you've nitted up, he should stop 3betting you a lot. If he continues to do so, you can take advantage. If he stops 3betting, then you can loosen back up and repeat.
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#40
10-03-2007, 01:57 AM
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Re: 4bet bluff vs 2p2er flops top pair
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] ugh at this hand in general... raising A2s UTG with frequent 3bettor in position 4bet bluffing a 3bet of UTG luckboxing your way to the best hand (prob) [/ QUOTE ] He 3bets a lot but not a ridiculous amount. Also you sort of contradict yourself. You think my opening raise is bad because I get 3bet a lot, yet you don't like my 4bet because you think he is showing a lot of strength 3betting an UTG raise. If he 3bets a ton then I don't get why the 4bet is bad, and if he doesn't then I don't see why the opening raise is bad. [/ QUOTE ] honestly, in general, i don't like your opening raise without a huge fish in the blinds. (this is not a nit saying this) Its hard to win a big pot OOP with A2 the 4bet bluff is bad b/c if he is positionally aware he should be 3betting less of your range, so he's 3betting about (88-AA, AK, AQ, random suited stuff every once in awhile) He's calling a lot of that range. Not to mention you have terrible equity against that range. Bad equity + not folding a lot of his range = bad bluff. Also the 4bet is small enough where you might not fold some hands you were expecting. the open is bad when an freq 3bettor is behind b/c you are either going to toss chips away pre, call and have no idea where you stand and be OOP, or be making bluffs when you really have no idea if he is strong or weak. Tightening up your pf range temporarily (w/o the 3bettor noticing hopefully) will increase your expectation vs a freq 3 bettor. Once its become obv you've nitted up, he should stop 3betting you a lot. If he continues to do so, you can take advantage. If he stops 3betting, then you can loosen back up and repeat. [/ QUOTE ] very good post
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