KK...a thought process in the heat of battle.

[Proofrock]

Since it's a 5-way pot I'm less inclined to wait to the turn because your hand is especially vulnerable here. Any 4,5,6,8,T, or J can complete a straight. Any 9 or 7 can easily make somebody trips, and any ace obviously hurts. Furthermore, since the flop is rainbow roughly 3/4 of the time you'll put 2 to a flush up on the turn (i.e., adds flush draws you won't be able to over-charge on the turn). Also, any pocket pair is getting odds to call to hit a set. That leaves very few turn cards you can safely raise and expect it be correct (in a FTOP kind of way).

Raising the flop at least charges backdoor draws and pocket pairs too much to draw.

I think I would like a delayed raise better on a board with a slightly different texture or in a large but not huge pot like this that is both (1) multiway and (2) large enough to give extreme longshot draws odds to hit with no flop raise.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

The preflop action clearly defines your hand (assuming you are not putting on a fancy move) as a big pair (or possibly AK). By raising the flop, you define your hand even further as probably an overpair and not AK.

Since I have already said I have a good hand and the pot is already fairly large, I might as well make a value raise on the flop. A three-bet on the flop or a turn donk bet by a player other than UTG means that I am probably beat (depending on my reads, off course) and I can consider slipping into call-down mode or even calling the turn and folding the river unimproved, depending on who bets the river and who overcalls. If I have a loose or tilted table image, then my hand is not so well-defined and my options may be different.

In principle, I don't hate the idea of delaying a raise until the turn on a non-scary card (in fact, I embrace it and it was one of the things I intuitively understood even before reading SSHE), but I think the concept increases in merit as the number of possible scare cards on the turn increases. I think waiting until the turn to raise would be better on a 982r flop or a 972 flop with two hearts than this one. Here, most of the draws you are defending against are five outs or less are potentially less obvious when they hit.

BTW, my last limp-reraise UTG was TT at a very loose table with a couple of very smart LAGs who liked to build big preflop pots in position with speculative hands.

[SNOWBALL]

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imo, the unique thing about limit poker is that, in reality, all hands (except the unbeatable nuts) are essentially draws until all 5 cards are dealt. For example, you have black TT, someone has KhQh, and another has A9. the flop is 9h3h2s. who is charging who in this spot?

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whoa.... this is very deep

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The answer is that KQs is charging both players, but TT has an equity edge against A9, so TT is benefitting from the 3 way action. If it gets HU, TT becomes a money dog, but may benefit from KOing A9, depending on the pot size.

[James.]

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imo, the unique thing about limit poker is that, in reality, all hands (except the unbeatable nuts) are essentially draws until all 5 cards are dealt. For example, you have black TT, someone has KhQh, and another has A9. the flop is 9h3h2s. who is charging who in this spot?

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whoa.... this is very deep

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The answer is that KQs is charging both players, but TT has an equity edge against A9, so TT is benefitting from the 3 way action. If it gets HU, TT becomes a money dog, but may benefit from KOing A9, depending on the pot size.

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this true. another beautiful poker phenomanom occurs when a 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] falls on the turn. at least in terms of "who's charging who" at that point.

[SNOWBALL]

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imo, the unique thing about limit poker is that, in reality, all hands (except the unbeatable nuts) are essentially draws until all 5 cards are dealt. For example, you have black TT, someone has KhQh, and another has A9. the flop is 9h3h2s. who is charging who in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]


whoa.... this is very deep

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer is that KQs is charging both players, but TT has an equity edge against A9, so TT is benefitting from the 3 way action. If it gets HU, TT becomes a money dog, but may benefit from KOing A9, depending on the pot size.

[/ QUOTE ]

this true. another beautiful poker phenomanom occurs when a 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] falls on the turn. at least in terms of "who's charging who" at that point.

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KQ still has more than a third of the deck, and should put his carkeys in the pot if both will match

[James.]

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imo, the unique thing about limit poker is that, in reality, all hands (except the unbeatable nuts) are essentially draws until all 5 cards are dealt. For example, you have black TT, someone has KhQh, and another has A9. the flop is 9h3h2s. who is charging who in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]


whoa.... this is very deep

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer is that KQs is charging both players, but TT has an equity edge against A9, so TT is benefitting from the 3 way action. If it gets HU, TT becomes a money dog, but may benefit from KOing A9, depending on the pot size.

[/ QUOTE ]

this true. another beautiful poker phenomanom occurs when a 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] falls on the turn. at least in terms of "who's charging who" at that point.

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KQ still has more than a third of the deck, and should put his carkeys in the pot if both will match

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unfortunately he usually doesn't have the benefit of knowing the others exact hole cards and as such wouldn't be able to realistically capitalize on his actual equity.

[wizard]

I regularly play 8-16 live and the answer to your question is YES! I recently lost w/QQ when I three bet and loosy called w/9-6s, flopped and rivered a 6. He paid 5 more small bets to see the river. This is not unusual.