My Belated Pooh-Bah Post (Why I hate slowplaying)

[Grease]

Sorry for the delay in getting my Pooh-Bah post out there. My mind has been pretty blank of late and I haven't been able to think of anything worthwhile to say to you guys, but this weekend, I saw two hands very similiar hands played very differently, one of them correctly and one of them incorrectly, and it get the wheels turning, so to speak. Anyways, I'll lay out what happened in the hands and then give my reasons why I think the 2nd hand was correct and the 1st was wrong. Both hands were at 10/20 live at the Borg.

Hand 1:

Hero has A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

2 limps, someone raises, hero 3-bets, blinds fold, limpers call.

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checks to the original raiser who bets, hero calls, one limper calls.

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Limper checks, raiser bets, Hero raises, limper folds, raiser calls.

River: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Check, bet, call.

Hand 2:

Hero has A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in MP

Two limps to hero who raises, tilting button 3-bets, BB calls 3, one limper folds, one calls, hero caps and everyone calls (4 total).

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB donks, limper folds, hero raises, button calls, BB calls.

Turn: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB donks, hero raises, button calls, BB calls.

River T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks, hero bets, only the BB calls.

Ok, onto my analysis. First off, I played the 2nd hand and remember the details quite well, but I saw a 2+2 lurker play the 1st hand, so my details might be a little off. However, I think the point remains: Slowplaying at loose tables is clearly incorrect for a variety of reasons. Let's examine why:

First off, slowplaying often does the exact opposite of what you're trying to achieve (hand camoflauge). It can effectively turn your hand over and show the table your monster. When I see a strong player just call the flop and then pop an innocuous looking turn, I immediately put them on the near-nuts. This can lead me to make laydowns that could have been difficult or incorrect if he fastplayed, seem much easier when I see the hammer fall on the turn. Not only that, but even most bad players are capable of sniffing out a slowplay, and you might lose action you would have otherwise gotten. For example. if I just call the flop in the 2nd hand and then raise the turn when a total blank falls, I might allow my opponent to make an astute laydown with the case A (which he had) since he could conclude that by raising the turn, I had a hand stronger than top pair. However, since I was playing my hand quickly, he was legitimately confused as to what I had (he looked at me quizzically when I raised the flop, which led him to donk the turn.) If I just call the flop and pop the turn, he can squarely put me on AA, but if I raise the flop and bet the turn, my hand range has actually weakened, since I could have either AK or AA. This may be counterintuitive, but I think it was one of my biggest revelations that I had when discussing this hand with one of my friends. Not only that, but I don't give him any way out by raising the flop. If he has an A and is a reasonably loose player (or even a reasonably decent one that pays off a bit too much), he'll probably just call down, because I don't give him an easy chance to fold by popping him on a big street. By keeping the pot large early and never giving him a chance to get poor odds to "draw" against me, he's almost correct for calling me down, but is in reality drawing to perfect-perfect.

Also, by not slowplaying, you can broaden your hand range. As I said before, my hand range was weakened by my flop raise, but on other hands, when I raise the flop, I could have anything from a straight draw or a flush draw to the nuts. This will help generate action on your monster hands, since players will routinely see you push strong draws in position and remark "I can't believe you capped with just a draw!"

For the 1st hand, put yourself in the villian's seat (the originaly PFR). The preflop 3-bettor just called the flop. What could he have? Either has has a hand like KK or QQ and is incorrectly peeling, or he has a hand like AA or 99 and is incorrectly slowplaying. By betting the turn, the villian can easily determine what his opponent holds and can make an easy laydown unless he has a hand which can improve to a set, which is almost certainly what the preflop 3-bettor holds.

I know we always say how "fastplaying is the new slowplaying," but I really wanted to give some examples that elucidate why fastplaying is almost always the correct way to play a monster, especially against loose players who frequently call down. By pounding the pot at every opportunity, you can legitimately confuse some of your opponents, not to mention make extra bets against them you might not have otherwise.

[TheHip41]

that first hand is sick. I mean wtf. You have top set in a pretty big pot, with 2 major draws. Just start betting all day. You want ppl to call 4 bets on the flop when they can be drawing dead on the turn.

Same thing in hand 2. Yes, less draws, but you don't want some nut sack calling with 65s and turning a flush draw.

The pot is so big in hand 2, you want everything to fold, or pay double.

Moral of the story, don't slowplay because you hit a set. Just bet/bet/bet/bet/bet...etc

[Yoshi63]

I recently posted a hand about how badly I played flopped trips (sad to say much worse than Hand 1 here..) After a while everyone discovers the drawbacks to slowplaying, but I guess every so often we forget [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[Harv72b]

Somewhere, way back in the archives (or it might have been on another site, dunno), one of my first hand posts ever resides, where I horribly misplayed a turned royal flush & didn't get a single big bet into the pot. I'm pretty sure that was the worst slowplay ever.

Live is a slightly different monster, as your bets & raises typically (but not always) garner more respect than they do online. In an online game, the conditions required to make a slowplay correct are so rare that you wouldn't be making much of a mistake if you never slowplayed. Live, they're still insanely rare in limit hold'em.

[James.]

i slowplayed a flopped set with AA the other day. it was a HU 5sb pot with a flop of AQ4r. flop checked through and a J came on the turn. he had KT.

it's become pretty common knowledge on this forum slowplaying sucks. your post helps explain why.

[jjshabado]

Here's a situation where I commonly slowplay monster hands on the flop:

A semi loose-passive player (someone who will bet a decent hand on the flop, but very rarely raises and who generally keeps the betting initiative until they meet resistance, and then calls down from that point) has the lead on the flop and there are 1 or 2 other calling stations in the hand. If I raise the flop its most likely I get 2 bets in on the flop and 1 bet in on the big streets from every player.

If I just call the flop, I can get two bets in on the turn and one bet in on the river from each player. Often it gives away my hand but against these types of players it doesn't matter. They want to "keep me honest".

This situation isn't that uncommon at low limit live games, but do you guys still feel that I should raise on the flop? Whats the argument for it?

[Allday Everyday]

Good post Grease. Yeah, I think slowplaying is generally bad. I cringe when I see my opponents incorrectly slowplaying hands even though their play makes me money. That is how much I hate slowplaying.

So I was reading TOP for the first time last week, and that chapter devoted to slowplaying got me down a bit. Good to know the theory of it and to understand it a bit better, but I hate slowplaying.

[xPeru]

Nice post and congrats on Pooh-Bah.

From now on correct answer will be fast play except against 2+2ers!

[Befolder]

Nice post Greaser.

[Mike Gallo]

Excellent post.

Also, by not slowplaying, you can broaden your hand range. As I said before, my hand range was weakened by my flop raise, but on other hands, when I raise the flop, I could have anything from a straight draw or a flush draw to the nuts. This will help generate action on your monster hands, since players will routinely see you push strong draws in position and remark "I can't believe you capped with just a draw!"

I have heard that remark before [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I know we always say how "fastplaying is the new slowplaying," but I really wanted to give some examples that elucidate why fastplaying is almost always the correct way to play a monster, especially against loose players who frequently call down.... <font color="purple">..and players who dont put their opponents on hands.

By pounding the pot at every opportunity, you can legitimately confuse some of your opponents, not to mention make extra bets against them you might not have otherwise.

If you read any of Clarkmeister's earlier posts, you will see some good discussions on this.

The moon the stars and the earth need to have perfect alignment to slow play in some of these games we play in.

We will meet up again one of these days. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]