100NL: Playing KK some more

TheProdigy · #1 02-13-2007, 10:42 AM

Ok guys, I just want to see how you play these two KK hands I had last night..

Villain is 18/10.5/3.3

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG+1 ($96)
MP1 ($167.75)
MP2 ($30.15)
CO ($22.85)
Button ($45.05)
Hero ($89)
BB ($48.40)
UTG ($95.75)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls $1, 1 fold, CO calls $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6, BB calls $5, MP1 raises to $35, CO folds, Hero calls $29, BB folds.

Flop: ($77) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero ???

In this situation are you looking to get it all-in on the flop? Are you putting them on aces anytime if they make any certain plays and laying down, or are you always calling down? I'm sure a lot of you re-raise more preflop, so tell me why you think you would do this...

Hand 2:

Villain is 33/25/7 over 70 hands..

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG+1 ($98)
MP1 ($99)
MP2 ($85.80)
Hero ($148.85)
CO ($98.50)
Button ($99.50)
SB ($94.45)
BB ($17.25)
UTG ($81.90)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $3, 3 folds, Hero raises to $11, 4 folds, UTG raises to $20, Hero calls $9.

Flop: ($41.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets $61.9 (All-In), Hero ??

How about right now?

The reason I am bringing these up is because I think there has to be some flawed thinking in these forums. I feel like in todays game auto-pushing KK might not be so right preflop, because the only thing anyone will push with is AA. All of these players simply call AK, and very few are raising all-in with QQ(and you can obviously tell who would raise with QQ with reads). Does anyone agree somewhat with this kind've thinking?

1p0kerboy · #2 02-13-2007, 10:53 AM

I find myself in situations where I can fold KK preflop often enough.

Having said that, given villians' lagginess its going to be hard to do in both of these spots.

Berge20 · #3 02-13-2007, 10:57 AM

IMO - Both decisions were made pre-flop when you called.

Once all unders fell, I don't see how you don't go to the felt in each hand.

Hand 1: A fairly TAG player limp-RR from MP
Have you ever seen him Limp-RR from MP before? Particularly over a raise from the blind?

Hand 2: Guy 4-bets (mini) from UTG - He's fairly laggy, so I call his AI flop push.

TheProdigy · #4 02-13-2007, 11:02 AM

I realized the limp-RR and was wondering if this is always AA...I have been told it is, and I don't think I would Limp-RR with anything but this exact hand(btw, right behind the guy was a huge LAG who ended up just calling). But somehow I couldn't help but think "It's a big hand and he is stealing blah" But no, I had never saw him do it before...

But what is he 4-betting with? Especially just a min-raise? Wouldn't he push or call with AK or QQ?

Edit: I also agree both these decisions were made before the flop, I am just wondering if anyone changes anything preflop?

1p0kerboy · #5 02-13-2007, 11:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is 18/10.5/3.3

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: A fairly TAG player limp-RR from MP

[/ QUOTE ]

If THIS is TAG I don't even want to know what I am! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

BTW very good analysis.

TheProdigy · #6 02-13-2007, 11:07 AM

1p0kerboy;

I do see this as a TAG as well..I define a TAG as 17/7 and up to 20/11 or so. Anything below is easily ran over and I consider anything less a nit. I think anything more is slightly LAGgy and should be three-bet lightly. I run at 18.6/8.7 and consider myself not really that agressive but still in the TAG definition. Regardless, it doesn't mean that a TAG playing style is the only way to win though.

1p0kerboy · #7 02-13-2007, 11:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Anything below is easily ran over and I consider anything less a nit.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're wrong.

I play tighter than what you recommend and have a great WR. In fact, it is how I make my living.

TheProdigy · #8 02-13-2007, 11:37 AM

I did not say you cannot win sir, read it again. I said I do not think that the TAG style is the only way to win at all, but said the style with less than those numbers is easily ran over by a solid TAG. The thing about 100NL is that you aren't going to play enough good players to get beat, and you will show a very solid winrate.

I know I am right as I have played quite a bit versus you and am up versus you because I know it is easy to get you to fold a hand. This is not at all meant to be a "dig" against you, but your style is not a TAG stlye at all. Again, I know you are a winning player and a good player, but you will get pushed around by TAGs. Also, it doesn't mean TAGs will consistently beat you, but they will run you over with betting(and if you are good enough, which I am sure you are, then you will know when to catch them trying to run you over and punish you)

FYI: When I say ran over I do not mean money wise, I just mean betting wise. I mean that they will make you fold and will run you over with betting, not that they will run you over and make you lose at this game. If you know what you are doing, then they will run you over but you will pick them off often enough to show a profit.

1p0kerboy · #9 02-13-2007, 11:47 AM

I think this might be a case of apples and oranges.

There is a huge difference between weak-tight and tight-aggressive, which is what I think you're saying. But there is also a difference between tight preflop and tight postflop. While I may not play as many hands as the average player, you can bet (pun intended) that there is going to be a good amount of well timed and randomized continuation bets, semi-bluffs, and bluffs coming from me. I'm not an open book and I do play aggressive.

I'm not saying that this is a perfect strategy either. Every strategy is exploitable.

1p0kerboy · #10 02-13-2007, 11:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I know I am right as I have played quite a bit versus you and am up versus you because I know it is easy to get you to fold a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL at this statement.

What, did we play heads up or something?

What is your SN and what sample size do we have together?