Ugly comments in hand histories.

[Pokey]

As I read through uNL hand histories I see a big range of responses: the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Good responses are thorough, thoughtful, and based firmly in solid math and solid poker skills. "Raise preflop because your hand is probably best and you want to be heads-up and you want cut down on your opponent's implied odds." See? That's a good response because it actually explains what you are thinking and why, because it's based on good poker theory, and because it actually has the potential to educate the reader.

Bad responses are sparse and unhelpful (even if they are correct). "Raise pre" is a bad response. Even if you are 100% correct, nobody would ever gain any new poker insights from your comment. Since the goal of 2+2 is to be a learning community, accuracy is less important than thoroughness. An incorrect answer that is well explained will at least move the discussion forward, even if only to have others explain why that line of thinking is incorrect. A correct four-word answer accomplishes nothing.

Ugly responses are ones that SOUND like good responses but that are based on BAD poker theory. Many times these are often-repeated poker aphorisms which get mentioned so often that people begin to think they are true. These are the comments I want to explore in this post, because the sooner we clean them out of our Bin 'O Responses, the sooner we'll get back to learning good poker.

<font color="blue">You should raise for information.</font>

Information is great -- it's valuable and useful. But it's rarely worth the price if that's the only reason you're betting. Usually we SAY we're betting for information when in reality we're betting for other reasons. We're betting because we think we're ahead, or we're betting because we think the bluff will work often enough to be +EV, or we're betting to disguise our hand, or we're betting to block our opponent from making it too expensive for us to call ("pricing ourselves into the draw") or what have you. Now it's true that villain's response to the bet will give us information, but that's not really WHY we're raising. Think of it this way: if you folded to your opponent on the flop/turn/river and he said to you "hey, give me 20 BBs and I'll let you see my hand," would you do it? THAT'S paying for information, and it's a bad idea.

<font color="blue">Fold -- you've only got 4 BBs invested in the hand.</font>

Wow -- I've always hated this argument. It dove-tails nicely with that old poker aphorism "don't go broke in an unraised pot." Your "investment" in the hand is irrelevant. Whether you've got 200 BBs in the pot or 2 BBs in the pot, your decision of whether to bet/raise, check/call, or fold should be related to your hand, your opponent's range, and the odds. Some people are using this "investment" idea as a proxy for what they really mean: "since the pot was limped your opponent's range is wider than usual, so you need to be extra cautious -- beware of sneaky monsters." Alternatively, some people mean "you've got so much behind (relative to the size of the pot) that your hand REALLY suffers from reverse implied odds." Both of these can be extremely valid points that can mean that folding is best, but they have nothing to do with your "investment" directly. Stop saying the irrelevant and inaccurate versions and say what you mean instead.

<font color="blue">You're definitely ahead of his range, here -- push.</font>

This bit of advice is bad in a very sneaky way, because it tricks you into making a mistake.

Let's say you've got 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the BB and you overcall a raise from a tight-passive opponent.

The flop comes T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. You bet 2/3rds pot, it folds to the rock, and he calls.

The turn is J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. You check and the rock checks.

The river is 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], giving you a low flush. Now, you are undoubtedly ahead of your opponent's range right now, but that does NOT mean that you should bet hard, or even check-raise. Given that your opponent is tight and passive, he's going to fold most of the hands that you already beat, and he's going to call with most of the hands that beat you. He's also going to raise with hands that have you beaten badly. By betting strongly you make a very -EV play, even though you are ahead of your opponent's range right now. Remember -- there's a huge difference between being ahead of his range and being ahead of his range AFTER HE CALLS. Make sure you don't confuse the two.

<font color="blue">If you xxxxxxxx you are turning your hand face-up.</font>

No, you're not. Ever.

If the board is A477A and you push, you are not turning your hand face up. You will get called by a 7 every time, and you'll usually get called by 44. If the board is Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and you B3BAI you are not turning your hand face-up; you could have JT, you could have [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], you could have a set, you could have an overpair, you could have AQ. If you check/call the coordinated flop, check/call the turn, and donkbet the river when the draw hits, your opponents will assume you could have two pair or even TPTK slowplayed. If you five-bet all-in preflop you could have AA, KK, or AK (wider if your opponent is hyperaggressive).

If you are ever taking a line so incredibly specific that you could ONLY do it with one precise hand then you need to change the way you play VERY quickly, because that's a bad situation. More importantly, if your opponents are so narrow-minded as to put you on a SINGLE holding when you make a particular action that narrow-mindedness will prove a cash bonanza for you when you start to think outside the box and they don't. The coolest situation in the world is when your play "turns your hand face up" as a hand you DON'T have -- that's where big-time profits come from. Look for opportunities to "turn your hand face up" as something other than what you hold, because that's where FTOP mistakes are born. If your opponent folds to your bluff, you make out like a bandit. If your opponent pays off your sneaky monster you'll usually make DOUBLE-money: first from the pot and second from the advertising and confusion that you put in your opponents' minds.

<font color="blue">Call and play poker on the turn/river.</font>

Wow, great suggestion! Here I thought we were playing hearts....

"Call and play poker" roughly translates as "call, but I have no idea what to do on the next street." You should NEVER call and "see what happens." You should look ahead, see what MIGHT happen, and plan your responses accordingly, and you should do that before you call. If you've got QQ and your OOP opponent donkbets into you for half-pot on a flop of AJ7r, you don't "call and play poker on the turn." You decide NOW what you're going to do on the turn. If your opponent frequently donkbets as a bluff and then gives up on the turn, you should call now and check behind on the turn, intending to call any river bet. If your opponent never donkbets without TPNK or better you should either fold now or raise now (if you have oodles of folding equity because your opponent is extremely weak-tight). If your opponent could have any pair you might call down to the river or you might raise now and fold to a three-bet or you might call intending to raise the turn or river. But you never just "play it by ear" -- you act with a plan or you don't act at all. Much of our postflop poker profit comes from knowing in advance what we're going to do on later streets. Because your opponents are too shortsighted to bother looking ahead they'll make FTOP mistakes postflop that you won't make because you've got a plan and they don't. Since this planning is a major source of your profits you should never give it away by "playing poker."

[whyzze]

first of all, I want to say awesome post.

Especially:

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">Call and play poker on the turn/river.</font>

Wow, great suggestion! Here I thought we were playing hearts....

"Call and play poker" roughly translates as "call, but I have no idea what to do on the next street." You should NEVER call and "see what happens." You should look ahead, see what MIGHT happen, and plan your responses accordingly, and you should do that before you call. If you've got QQ and your OOP opponent donkbets into you for half-pot on a flop of AJ7r, you don't "call and play poker on the turn." You decide NOW what you're going to do on the turn. If your opponent frequently donkbets as a bluff and then gives up on the turn, you should call now and check behind on the turn, intending to call any river bet. If your opponent never donkbets without TPNK or better you should either fold now or raise now (if you have oodles of folding equity because your opponent is extremely weak-tight). If your opponent could have any pair you might call down to the river or you might raise now and fold to a three-bet or you might call intending to raise the turn or river. But you never just "play it by ear" -- you act with a plan or you don't act at all. Much of our postflop poker profit comes from knowing in advance what we're going to do on later streets. Because your opponents are too shortsighted to bother looking ahead they'll make FTOP mistakes postflop that you won't make because you've got a plan and they don't. Since this planning is a major source of your profits you should never give it away by "playing poker."

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someone finally said it.

[Unknown Soldier]

[ QUOTE ]
first of all, I want to say awesome post.

Especially:

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">Call and play poker on the turn/river.</font>

Wow, great suggestion! Here I thought we were playing hearts....

"Call and play poker" roughly translates as "call, but I have no idea what to do on the next street." You should NEVER call and "see what happens." You should look ahead, see what MIGHT happen, and plan your responses accordingly, and you should do that before you call. If you've got QQ and your OOP opponent donkbets into you for half-pot on a flop of AJ7r, you don't "call and play poker on the turn." You decide NOW what you're going to do on the turn. If your opponent frequently donkbets as a bluff and then gives up on the turn, you should call now and check behind on the turn, intending to call any river bet. If your opponent never donkbets without TPNK or better you should either fold now or raise now (if you have oodles of folding equity because your opponent is extremely weak-tight). If your opponent could have any pair you might call down to the river or you might raise now and fold to a three-bet or you might call intending to raise the turn or river. But you never just "play it by ear" -- you act with a plan or you don't act at all. Much of our postflop poker profit comes from knowing in advance what we're going to do on later streets. Because your opponents are too shortsighted to bother looking ahead they'll make FTOP mistakes postflop that you won't make because you've got a plan and they don't. Since this planning is a major source of your profits you should never give it away by "playing poker."

[/ QUOTE ]


someone finally said it.

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great post, but disagree with the call and play poker part, sometimes it's ok to say that. Usually the poster does not give nearly enough information on our opponent to make some decisions. If there's a standard spot where raising and folding are both bad, but it puts us in a marginal spot on the next street then we should "call and play poker". In the sense that various subtleties about the player, the dynamics leading up to the point and how he views us could easily change our marginal decision on the next street. Plus, internet poker is fast. Obviously it would be great to draw out a plan for the entire hand, but it's not always possible.

[EMc]

Man where is Dan Bitel when I need him most?

[MrWooster]

Amazing - thanks

[infinity235]

Thanks Pokey... You are a great writer and player.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
first of all, I want to say awesome post.

Especially:

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">Call and play poker on the turn/river.</font>

Wow, great suggestion! Here I thought we were playing hearts....

"Call and play poker" roughly translates as "call, but I have no idea what to do on the next street." You should NEVER call and "see what happens." You should look ahead, see what MIGHT happen, and plan your responses accordingly, and you should do that before you call. If you've got QQ and your OOP opponent donkbets into you for half-pot on a flop of AJ7r, you don't "call and play poker on the turn." You decide NOW what you're going to do on the turn. If your opponent frequently donkbets as a bluff and then gives up on the turn, you should call now and check behind on the turn, intending to call any river bet. If your opponent never donkbets without TPNK or better you should either fold now or raise now (if you have oodles of folding equity because your opponent is extremely weak-tight). If your opponent could have any pair you might call down to the river or you might raise now and fold to a three-bet or you might call intending to raise the turn or river. But you never just "play it by ear" -- you act with a plan or you don't act at all. Much of our postflop poker profit comes from knowing in advance what we're going to do on later streets. Because your opponents are too shortsighted to bother looking ahead they'll make FTOP mistakes postflop that you won't make because you've got a plan and they don't. Since this planning is a major source of your profits you should never give it away by "playing poker."

[/ QUOTE ]


someone finally said it.

[/ QUOTE ]


great post, but disagree with the call and play poker part, sometimes it's ok to say that. Usually the poster does not give nearly enough information on our opponent to make some decisions. If there's a standard spot where raising and folding are both bad, but it puts us in a marginal spot on the next street then we should "call and play poker". In the sense that various subtleties about the player, the dynamics leading up to the point and how he views us could easily change our marginal decision on the next street. Plus, internet poker is fast. Obviously it would be great to draw out a plan for the entire hand, but it's not always possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree here Here is the thing. We all know that poker is a game of incomplete information. We also all know that the person with more information has the advantage (i.e. position.) The reason why deep stack poker is more difficult than shallow stack is because the turn and river bring more information about your hand, and better opponents will process that information more effectively. So to say call the flop/play poker is not a good way of going about things is a bit shortsighted in my opinion because the turn and river will bring more information about the strength of your opponents holdings (whether it be a bet size or a timing tell, or whatever.) So all in all, nice post pokey, but I think you are just a bit off on the last point as there are a ton of times when it is correct to call and reevaluate in marginal situations.

[whyzze]

you shouldn't know exactly you are going to do everytime you call a bet.

However, you shouldn't call if you dont have any plan. Before you call, you need to know what cards are going to be good to bluffraisse on, you need to be prepared to call the shove in some circumstances, you need to look ahead. Thats the whole point.

call and reevaluate says, hmmm...i has a good hand...ahhhh im scared....but i has a good hand. Which the majority of the time ends in a fold, when it should have been a shove somewhere, or a fold earlier.

[traz]

I had the same thoughts as US...mostly good, but I in alot of situations calling and playing poker is fine

[shyturtle27]

Wow, really nice post. Most people (including myself) need to take this advice to heart especially in uNL where there are so many posters coming and going.