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  #1  
Old 11-01-2007, 09:14 AM
jeffnc jeffnc is offline
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Default Angelo: Fastrolling

Surprisingly, I thought this article was pretty weak. I've heard great things about Angelo, but this one didn't impress. Most of it was pretty obvious, except for the stuff I didn't agree with :-) I would rather have heard of interesting ways to be polite and still get information, and ways to avoid being "angle shot".

For example, your opponent says he has some hand that you beat. You show, he mucks. You missed a great opportunity to find out if he was lying, and how he looks when he lies.

There was a 2+2 post not long ago in B&M where villain said "Kings", then proceeded to show his cards, but the bottom card was directly behind the top card and couldn't be seen. He was waiting for our hero to muck, since hero couldn't beat kings. But hero waited him out, asked the dealer to make villain show both, and villain reluctantly showed his other card - a T. Hero finally tabled JJ and won, noting the angle shoot.

Sure you could have tabled your cards, but you'd have missed this great opportunity. Even if you tabled your cards after he said kings instead of before, you'd still not see what he was bluffing with.

No, I don't think Tommy's article in this case addressed the meta game issues very well at all. I'd much prefer to see some interesting techniques for getting more information while at the same time not looking like a slowrolling D-bag.
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  #2  
Old 11-01-2007, 04:39 PM
felson felson is offline
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Default Re: Angelo: Fastrolling

[ QUOTE ]
There was a 2+2 post not long ago in B&M where villain said "Kings", then proceeded to show his cards, but the bottom card was directly behind the top card and couldn't be seen. He was waiting for our hero to muck, since hero couldn't beat kings. But hero waited him out, asked the dealer to make villain show both, and villain reluctantly showed his other card - a T. Hero finally tabled JJ and won, noting the angle shoot.

Sure you could have tabled your cards, but you'd have missed this great opportunity. Even if you tabled your cards after he said kings instead of before, you'd still not see what he was bluffing with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tommy fastrolls only when he can beat the hand that the opponent verbally claims. Thus, he would have waited here, and still seen the angle shoot.

It's true that Tommy would have fastrolled aces and missed the angle shoot. To me, this is not a big deal. That's because this sort of angle shoot is rare, and also because it will never cost me the pot (since I never muck without seeing a better hand faceup).
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  #3  
Old 11-01-2007, 07:28 PM
EWillers EWillers is offline
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Default Re: Angelo: Fastrolling

I like the way Tommy writes and this article doesn't disappoint in that department. I must say however, that I disagree with most of the content of the article.

Taking a track like Tommy advocates will reward type-A asses. Granted, sometimes the non-shower is a weak/embarassed player; in those instances I employ rules similar to what Tommy advocates.

However, when I'm at a showdown with someone who I don't know to be in the weak/embarassed category I "fastroll" when I am supposed to show (either somebody called my river/all-in bet or I am in first position at showdown). When it is their turn to act first (either I called them or they are first to act at showdown) I never show my hand until I see theirs.

There is a need for good techniques on how to do this and not come across as an ass. When people say "I missed" or "you got me" I've heard that saying "show or fold" works pretty well.

When I hear "I missed" or "you win" or something to that effect I usually just say "cool" (in a lighthearted way) and sit there in the same position with my hands on my cards.

I mean the problem with Tommy's position is that for those who are willing to be asses, they will never have to show their hands unless 1) they have a winner or 2) somebody has the guts/nerve to wait out their little game.

I know a few players I play with freqently who are masters at never showing unless they have a winner. Playing as Tommy suggests would only strengthen their position.

On a side note, I really must disagree with the argument that since a player is weak he should be treated differently based on some equity/justice argument. It's ok to treat weak players differently on a donkey argument (we want them as comfy as possible so they don't leave). But as far as equity/justice is concerned why (in a closed environment with well defined rules--such as in a game) should somebody's skill level give them a special status?(handicapping situations being exempted of course).
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  #4  
Old 11-01-2007, 08:52 PM
DavidC DavidC is offline
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Default Re: Angelo: Fastrolling

I never ever and I mean never fastroll, ever. Never.

It's not The One True Way.

But I'm also nuts. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #5  
Old 11-02-2007, 04:17 AM
checktowin checktowin is offline
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Default Re: Angelo: Fastrolling

pretty solid article imo
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  #6  
Old 11-02-2007, 11:54 AM
Alex-db Alex-db is offline
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Default Re: Angelo: Fastrolling

This article is wrong.

Fastrolling in the situation described encourages the verbal announcing which leads to angle-shooting.

I always wait my turn against a verbal announcer, and I tell them to stop slowing the game down when they don't want to turn their cards over, however strong my hand is.

The only time I fast roll is when its obvious what my opponents hand is and I have sucked out or something, or when it such a small pot we should just get onto the next hand.

When I am first to show my hand is always tabled instantly.
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  #7  
Old 11-02-2007, 04:42 PM
Jim Morgan Jim Morgan is offline
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Default Re: Angelo: Fastrolling

I'd like to present an argument for fastrolling. It comes up most in Omaha, but sometimes holdem. If you show your hand your opponent might not realize he has it beat. Maybe he backdoored a flush that he forgot he had. just show that nut straight and let him see it. He might just fold 2 pair or a busted low, not realizing he backed into the flush.

In holdem, the counterfeited kicker hand is probably the most common example. Flop comes AK373. Just flip over AQ, and say "Ace Queen". Don't
say Aces up or anything that is an overt lie. Just draw attention to your queen. Sometimes people forget about the way the K saved their sorry ass A5off suit. After all, they are stupid enough to play that hand, so clearly they could be stupid enough to miread the board at the end. If you don't fastroll, he flips A5 FACE UP and the dealer will (probably) save him from himself.

Is this angle shooting? Maybe, but I'm comfortable with it from an ethics point of view.

Jim Morgan
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  #8  
Old 11-02-2007, 04:59 PM
jeffnc jeffnc is offline
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Default Re: Angelo: Fastrolling

[ QUOTE ]
Taking a track like Tommy advocates will reward type-A asses. Granted, sometimes the non-shower is a weak/embarassed player; in those instances I employ rules similar to what Tommy advocates.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a really good point. And, frankly, one that should have been addressed in the article.
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  #9  
Old 11-02-2007, 05:03 PM
jeffnc jeffnc is offline
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Default Re: Angelo: Fastrolling

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to present an argument for fastrolling. It comes up most in Omaha, but sometimes holdem. If you show your hand your opponent might not realize he has it beat. Maybe he backdoored a flush that he forgot he had. just show that nut straight and let him see it. He might just fold 2 pair or a busted low, not realizing he backed into the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another good point, and another one that should have been addressed in the article. The 2+2 B&M forum has many examples of asses insisting on seeing opponent's hands ("for information"), only to find out their opponent was trying to fold the winner, and losing the pot.
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  #10  
Old 11-02-2007, 05:11 PM
BigBiceps BigBiceps is offline
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Default Re: Angelo: Fastrolling

Reading this article made me not want to read the book.
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