30/60 turn spot

[PokerBob]

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How about any hand that has 6 outs against us when we're actually ahead (KQ, KJ, QJ)?


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How do these hands have 6 outs?

[HOWMANY]

this is a live 30/60 game, being "exploitable" is not a big deal. i understand its a fun word to use the past few weeks and everyone is saying it but it doesnt matter how exploitable you are if nobody is exploiting you. also we would obviously be bet/call sets/two pair/pair+flush draw/straight here and i assume bet/fold overpairs so an 8 is just part of what we will definitely be betting.

*edit*
replying to garland obv. mashed reply to the wrong post.

[PokerBob]

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this is a live 30/60 game, being "exploitable" is not a big deal. i understand its a fun word to use the past few weeks and everyone is saying it but it doesnt matter how exploitable you are if nobody is exploiting you. also we would obviously be bet/call sets/two pair/pair+flush draw/straight here and i assume bet/fold overpairs so an 8 is just part of what we will definitely be betting.

*edit*
replying to garland obv. mashed reply to the wrong post.

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it's not exploitable. when you check, you are basically saying, "i don't like the turn card, so bet the river if you want, but i'm calling your ass."

[Garland]

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I'm not exactly sure what you're willing to bet on this turn, but if you're only willing to bet an 8 here, this is extremely exploitable.

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Please explain how.

For the record, I never said I'd only bet an 8 here.

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Since you said you'll bet more than an 8, the point is kind of moot, isn't it? Anyhow, if you're only betting an 8, you are going to be giving way too many free cards to your opponent for one.

Honestly, there are a lot of good posters in this thread (and one who was confused by the original post) who are saying betting the turn is correct. Maybe it's time to reconsider your position. Or maybe not. Up to you, really.

Garland

[PokerBob]

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I'm not exactly sure what you're willing to bet on this turn, but if you're only willing to bet an 8 here, this is extremely exploitable.

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Please explain how.

For the record, I never said I'd only bet an 8 here.

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Since you said you'll bet more than an 8, the point is kind of moot, isn't it? Anyhow, if you're only betting an 8, you are going to be giving way too many free cards to your opponent for one.

Honestly, there are a lot of good posters in this thread (and one who was confused by the original post) who are saying betting the turn is correct. Maybe it's time to reconsider your position. Or maybe not. Up to you, really.

Garland

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Well, I guess me and JoeTall and worm33 and 33-50% of schneids will just have to be wrong.

[HOWMANY]

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Honestly, there are a lot of good posters in this thread (and one who was confused by the original post) who are saying betting the turn is correct. Maybe it's time to reconsider your position. Or maybe not. Up to you, really.

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even though i think betting the turn is the right play this is a really bad argument. lots of good players told pbob to call the river c/r in the 33 backdoor flush hand he posted in high stakes and they were all just plain wrong.

whether to bet turn here depends on whether villain will fold 1 pair and tbh i think arguing over whether that will happen on an online message board is pretty retarded. i personally think hell fold a pair, so do you and a lot of others. pbob joe and some others disagree. unless we hunt down and sweat the villain from this hand we will never know what the truth is.

[Garland]

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even though i think betting the turn is the right play this is a really bad argument. lots of good players told pbob to call the river c/r in the 33 backdoor flush hand he posted in high stakes and they were all just plain wrong.

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Well, obviously not just because a lot of good players said so, but because they had good reasoning to back up the play. Bob's initial claim that the default player won't fold any pair on the turn just doesn't hold water in my book.

Perhaps the adjective "exploitable" is incorrect, but you are giving a free card to your opponent by checking. I don't like doing that.

I didn't know about the 33 hand until you mentioned it, but I can't see calling the river as being "plain wrong", because a strong player will see the two folds and can cheaply exploit (I think I got it right this time) this situation in the future (missed one draw, but represent the other).

Garland

[Garland]

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How about any hand that has 6 outs against us when we're actually ahead (KQ, KJ, QJ)?


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How do these hands have 6 outs?

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Specifically if he has K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], otherwise he has 4 or 5 outs. But your point is well-taken [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Garland

[StrictlyStrategy]

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betting the turn here is fine i dont know wtf we would check for when we can actually get a better hand to fold somewhat realistically and we have like 12ish basically nut outs if not. 3 betting after getting c/r however is of course horrendous bc you have just cost yourself 4 bets pretty much guaranteed to draw to a flush that should have cost 1-2 bets to draw to.

if villain is never folding a pair then fine check turn but honestly this is like one of the few spots in lhe where people fold a pair somewhat often so we may as well take advantage of it. also in live games we are getting c/r by draw here like never.

*edit*
if we check turn then calling a river bet is horrible. the pot is tiny and we have to give him credit for peeling the flop with no pair no draw on a coordinated board.

i also dont understand pbob's "if you bet turn you have to bet river". most people that stubbornly call turn again with 1 pair no redraw will insta payoff on river. some will fold but they are fairly rare. if they had worse flush draw and hit a pair that they might have folded then oh well.

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I don't think I've ever completely agreed with such a long post.

3betting the turn to get a free showdown? Why do you want a free showdown with what's the worst hand ~100% of the time?

[Schneids]

The reason people don't (or rather, shouldn't) fold pairs on this board on the turn is because most PF raisers c-bet QJo and other similar no-showdown type hands on the turn and check their showdownable hands. A large number of poker players are aware of this fact, so when the board is as such and we've got a chance to take a free 12+ out draw, I think it's better to generally check because our fold equity is not too high and the pot is small so letting a free 4-6 out draw hit isn't too harmful.

Make the board a similar straightish type board, but with bigger cards, and we still have just some kind of ace high flush draw, and I think there's a better case to be made for betting (because then people begin to lay down bottom pair to turn bets because the board makes it more likely to have hit the PFRs hand range).