fold x2, but how'd I play the rest?

[brick]

Since we're turning this into a PF discussion.... I really doubt that I have an equity disadvantage on the 2nd small bet that I put in the pot when I raise.
I have position and hand that should win at least it's fair share.

So what I'm hearing is that the raise PF is bad purly because of how it makes the hand harder to play correctly post flop. Do I understand this right?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Since we're turning this into a PF discussion.... I really doubt that I have an equity disadvantage on the 2nd small bet that I put in the pot when I raise.
I have position and hand that should win at least it's fair share.

So what I'm hearing is that the raise PF is bad purly because of how it makes the hand harder to play correctly post flop. Do I understand this right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. It's straight out of HEPFAP and it's applicable even in loose games. You bloat the pot with a very very small edge (note that many who will limp with J6 will also limp with TT) and make errors that donkeys tend to make no longer errors. Basically you trade a fractional amount of EV for what is often a much bigger loss of EV in the future; you can't protect your hand (and A9o is type of hand that will need postflop protection), you will have a harder time folding in marginal spots, and by bloating the pot you heavily mitigate your normal positional advantage. You decrease your implied odds on flopping a pair, decrease the chances of a 1pr hand holding up to win UI, and don't even have nearly as big of an edge as you're assuming you have here. You have to really cherrypick hands for all 5 people to give your hand a significant edge. There's very little upside to raising and a hell of a lot of downside.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Just muck. That hand sucks in a multiway pot. Do you think you'll get excessive action from worse aces? Are the clowns who limp in with A4 also limping in with AJ? If so, you've got a RIO situation as well.

Anyway, I'd much rather have T8o in position here than A9.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you'd "rather" have is really irrelevant and I think A9 is definitely worth playing in a live game vs. limping donkeys, but it isn't worth a raise. I think given the Button you really need to be pretty bad postflop to not be able to turn a small profit with this hand.

Rob

[brick]

Thanks for helping reenforce this for me. Much appreciated.

[Garland]

Hand #1: Ok, pre-flop is really on the border with A9o, but I think we can play this on the button. A8o and below I think is a muck. Raising is definitely bad as Entity already outlined, so I won't waste my time. If it's worth playing, it's worth a limp, and I've seen one of the tightest and best players at Bay 101 40/80 limp in this spot with this hand, so it reinforces my belief this hand is playable.

Question is, would you raise with ATo in this spot? I tend to, but I'm starting to wonder if limping is better. If not, where is the line? AJ? AQ?

As played, you should raise the flop immediately, and hope BB 3-bets. The problem with waiting for a "safe" turn card is that (like this instance) BB froze when an overcard appeared. In addition, it's not like the bet came from your immediate right where you can encounter everyone with 2 big bets on the turn. When villain 3-bets, I'd peel the river to improve.

Hand #2: This is one of those hands where Hand #1 might come into play. If you didn't fold hand #1, then I would be more inclined to give tricky villain a better range for #2. But now that you're seen as a "folder" in Hand #1 (where most normal opposition would at least call the turn 3-bet), you might have to call down because she might be thinking you're an easy target to bluff as you are capable of making a "good" laydown.

Garland

[bakku]

as entity said, hand 1 is a limp and i'd probably limp A8o as well.

[sternroolz]

I disagree with limping in hand one with either A9o or A8o.
I get my self into real problems on seemingly safe boards. There are simply too many players at loose games in LA and Vegas that will limp with A10-AQ, and even in the blinds, not raise with AK if there are lots of players in the pot. The A9/A8o hands become very difficult to play in these situations when an Ace flops and tend to cost quite a few bets. All of the sudden these loose players become very aggressive with the line of thought being..."ok, no one raised before flop and certainly this idiot would have raised before the flop with AK like he always does and he plays tight so he couldn't have two pair so my hand must be best and I should raise again". I agree with the reasons for not raising them pf. So therefore, it is easiest to simply muck the hand and wait for a better opportunity.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with limping in hand one with either A9o or A8o.
I get my self into real problems on seemingly safe boards. There are simply too many players at loose games in LA and Vegas that will limp with A10-AQ,

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, suppose that's true. Then what will happen is they will bet an Axx board, and you'll have to decide for yourself what that particular opponent is likely to hold. If it comes bet/raise to you, you have a relatively easy muck. This is why you have position with this hand; you have the power to see how opponents will react to the board when the action comes to you (the same power that you forfeit somewhat if you decide to raise pre-flop). Also, if you're facing bad opponents, they are also likely to have Axo or Axs, and you easily dominate them as well. You don't have to play AK to beat those hands on an Axx flop.

Also, you're not only playing for the value of the A, but also the 9 as well. You won't get into too many problems if you can play well post-flop.

That said, if you did decide to fold A9o forever on the button in this situation, I don't think you'd be giving up much.

Garland

[J-dub]

Hey Brick -

In hand one, like others are crucifying you for, raising is the worst option. There is still, I think, ample equity in that game to play the hand, though, so I limp.

However, given that you raised, I also think that raising the flop is superior. I understand wanting to 'wait for the turn', but I like that a lot more if you have AJ on a J73 flop. As it is, there are more "quasi scary" cards than safe cards. But, even more importantly, the flop bettor will likely, even if you raise the flop, put you on AK/AQ and threebet any pair. This will get out the KT/QJ hands that you desperately want to be folded.

Hand 2 is entirely player dependant. Given who I think the villain was in hand #2, it's a fold (although, interestingly, I'd say AA and KK are more likely holdings for her than AK/KQ) (I'm thinking the villain has short dark hair, speaks with an accent, is a bit heavyset and almost definitely wearing black, since that's all she wears).

Josh W

[celiholic]

hand 1, pf is definitely a limp, i'll limp with ajo if the player are bad are chase you button pair to the river, you building a pot for them to chase correctly after the flop, which no edge whatsoever. i'll fold after villian bet, obviously k is not a blank...

hand 2, it depends... agree with garland and others

but i play pretty much everything when i have the button for 1 bet(iff 5way+), if the players are bad enough (post-flop, passive) but it depends on table !