PF Raising Logic

[markuisis]

I think I take a very different approach to PF play than most ppl and I wanted to know y there is so much reason for let's say re-raising AK pf. To me, it seems that when ur raising AQ or AK pf, although it's true that ur def ahead of their range and could say ur raising for value, isn't it also true that the hands ur ahead of (kq,kj,k10,gj,g10,a10,aj,a9s) will fold out and if u get called u prob either have the same hand or a hand like a small pp or sc which isn't likely to play a big pot unless ur crushed. So, it seems more reasonable to cold call with hands like aq and win big pots when ppl flop an ace with a jack kicker etc. I'm still unsure about blind defending since I do think there is a lot of value in getting as much in pf and therefore cutting down the post flop edge of position, but i think u have to balance the fact that a lot of worse hands will fold out into ur considerations. As for re-raising pp, I see 3-betting small pps as essentially the same as 3-betting SCs (deceptive and hoping to flop big hands) and i c big pocket pairs being fine with raising since u r usually gonna get called by worse pocket pairs all day long, along with the profitable possibiltiy of getting it in pf (whereas I try and avoid getting AK and def AQ in pf). I wanna make sure i'm not saying u should never 3-bet these hands as that is obviously exploitable, just saying that to me, auto-pot mashing against a raise with AQ seems to have some considerable downsides. Also, against loose fishes, its obviously different since they r calling pf very light. Any thoughts?

[bigdaddyyc]

Fold equity agaisnt QQ-88 is why i do it.
also, some ppl will call with AQs, AJs, A10s, KQs if they are tilty/bad. Because you hold 1 A and 1 K your half as likely to run into AA or KK, so your hand is probably at worst a coin flip. If you call a big raise, and dont hit the flop your probably folding to any bet, and if you won't fold then why wouldnt you just push allin PF and get some fold eq.

[Dromar]

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I think I take a very different approach to PF play than most ppl and I wanted to know y there is so much reason for let's say re-raising AK pf. To me, it seems that when ur raising AQ or AK pf, although it's true that ur def ahead of their range and could say ur raising for value, isn't it also true that the hands ur ahead of (kq,kj,k10,gj,g10,a10,aj,a9s) will fold out and if u get called u prob either have the same hand or a hand like a small pp or sc which isn't likely to play a big pot unless ur crushed. So, it seems more reasonable to cold call with hands like aq and win big pots when ppl flop an ace with a jack kicker etc. I'm still unsure about blind defending since I do think there is a lot of value in getting as much in pf and therefore cutting down the post flop edge of position, but i think u have to balance the fact that a lot of worse hands will fold out into ur considerations. As for re-raising pp, I see 3-betting small pps as essentially the same as 3-betting SCs (deceptive and hoping to flop big hands) and i c big pocket pairs being fine with raising since u r usually gonna get called by worse pocket pairs all day long, along with the profitable possibiltiy of getting it in pf (whereas I try and avoid getting AK and def AQ in pf). I wanna make sure i'm not saying u should never 3-bet these hands as that is obviously exploitable, just saying that to me, auto-pot mashing against a raise with AQ seems to have some considerable downsides. Also, against loose fishes, its obviously different since they r calling pf very light. Any thoughts?

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If you used entire words, and separate paragraphs, your post would be easier to read. As is, it appears to be a huge jumble of lower case letters with lots of 1-letter abbreviations.

I don't like to make grammar nazi posts, but I honestly can't tell what you're trying to ask. The only question mark is after "any thoughts." Any thoughts about what?

[JOHNY CA$H]

I've become a much bigger fan of 3 betting AK pre flop since reading PNL and understanding SPR. Assume a situation at 200NL, player before you raises to $8, and you can either call the 8 or reraise to $25. The benefits of 3 betting all come from making your hand easy to play:

1) if he's the type of player who will only push AA/KK, you can fold to a push, and probably save money vs flopping a pair and being deep stacked.

2) If you flop a pair, you can comfortably get all in on the flop. The stack to pot ratio is nice, and the only hand you worry about is a set here- but because or your pre flop bet they dont have the implied odds to draw to a set anyway, let alone draw to a set with an A/K high board.

3) Sometimes you'll get called by a smaller pair, and they'll fold to a cont bet on the flop fearing a big over pair.

4) You cannot be outplayed post flop at all at this point. No guessing.

5) Most times, they'll fold pre flop.

[6471849653]

After limpers one can always choose the amount one wants to raise, no need to limp after limpers (though weak kickers can still be played carefully by limping, but raising one or two can be the better move than playing against them and the blinds with a pay them hand). AK when the first one in from any position should come out raising if it has any chance of being called by hands it dominates. The weaker slick hands could open-raise less or they could limp, and as the position gets better one can think e.g. an AQ being an AK. It does make sense to limp with slick hands that simply do not steal the blinds often enough and are more often than not dominated when they get cold called/3-bet. One though can't limp with them if one gets raised like half the time, but other than that it's cheap to limp at NL holdem. When the game has loose players limit holdem is the easier game as one is getting the top pair as the nuts vs. all kinds of weak hands (that's harder to make so at nl and they get bigger compensations when they hit their junk stronger), also the blinds may call so loose that the KT is the nuts when it would be in a hard situation even when limped at nl as it's always possible someone, e.g. the BB, has a better kicker and it costs too much money and one gets lesser compensations when one wins (wins a small pot, loses a bigger one, so this is nl).

[wtfsvi]

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4) You cannot be outplayed post flop at all at this point. No guessing.

[/ QUOTE ] Of course you can be outplayed postflop.

[Acevader]

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4) You cannot be outplayed post flop at all at this point. No guessing.

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This was the case 6-12 months ago but not now. Everyone (even some of the fish) have wakened up to the amount of 3-betting going on and there are many, many people that are calling with a wide range of hands and floating c-bets just like they would in a normal raised pot. The problem here is that if you are unimproved or raised JJ and the board came A-Q high you still have the 'no guessing' mentality and are prone to go into fold mode because surely nobody floats in a 3-bet pot, etc.

A few months ago I greatly increased the amount of hands I was 3-betting. Recently I've reduced my 3-betting again with greater success and I don't automatically c-bet any pot when I've 3-bet (still 90%+) though.

[jstill]

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I think I take a very different approach to PF play than most ppl and I wanted to know y there is so much reason for let's say re-raising AK pf. To me, it seems that when ur raising AQ or AK pf, although it's true that ur def ahead of their range and could say ur raising for value, isn't it also true that the hands ur ahead of (kq,kj,k10,gj,g10,a10,aj,a9s) will fold out and if u get called u prob either have the same hand or a hand like a small pp or sc which isn't likely to play a big pot unless ur crushed. So, it seems more reasonable to cold call with hands like aq and win big pots when ppl flop an ace with a jack kicker etc. I'm still unsure about blind defending since I do think there is a lot of value in getting as much in pf and therefore cutting down the post flop edge of position, but i think u have to balance the fact that a lot of worse hands will fold out into ur considerations. As for re-raising pp, I see 3-betting small pps as essentially the same as 3-betting SCs (deceptive and hoping to flop big hands) and i c big pocket pairs being fine with raising since u r usually gonna get called by worse pocket pairs all day long, along with the profitable possibiltiy of getting it in pf (whereas I try and avoid getting AK and def AQ in pf). I wanna make sure i'm not saying u should never 3-bet these hands as that is obviously exploitable, just saying that to me, auto-pot mashing against a raise with AQ seems to have some considerable downsides. Also, against loose fishes, its obviously different since they r calling pf very light. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you used entire words, and separate paragraphs, your post would be easier to read. As is, it appears to be a huge jumble of lower case letters with lots of 1-letter abbreviations.

I don't like to make grammar nazi posts, but I honestly can't tell what you're trying to ask. The only question mark is after "any thoughts." Any thoughts about what?

[/ QUOTE ]

grammar nazis r losers... this is 2p2 an internet forum not my english HW, zomg abbreviations r standard, ldo... he even used punctuations and capitals to begin new sentences several times

OP ur message was fine to read, if the guy had any real useful response to ur question he would have given it

all I can say is that ur thinking about this issue seems to clearly be off, folding AQo in the blinds or vs tight early raises is fine (cold calling sux tho) but 3betting mid- low PPs should not be the norm while cold calling AK should never be done, post specific preflop spots in the strat forums to find out what to do when with which hands. One thing I will say is 3betting these hands (and latter SCs when u get better) is valuable to expand ur 3betting range so players cant play perfectly vs it and just fold JJ and lower without thought, it makes them make more mistakes and u get more action with ur big PPs and other hands in position but u should know what ur plan is for after u 3bet when he calls and u flop or dont or when he 4bets

[markuisis]

"all I can say is that ur thinking about this issue seems to clearly be off, folding AQo in the blinds or vs tight early raises is fine (cold calling sux tho) but 3betting mid- low PPs should not be the norm while cold calling AK should never be done"

Why is cold calling with aq, especially in position, bad? I agree that if opener is utg or utg + 1 and u don't want any overcallers behind u, then it makes a lot of sense to raise. Other than that, I find cold calling with aq and ak can extract a lot of value from hands like aj, a10 and a9s when the flop is a-high as they expect u to be 3-betting better aces pf. Also, what's the difference in between 3-betting small pps and 3 betting scs? Both r deceptive cause they could hit low flops very hard and in fact ur more likely to flop a set with a pp than a made hand or good draw with a sc. If i am cold calling oop with hands like aq or kq or ak, then i either lead the flop regardless or look to c/r dry flops. BTW, i'm not advocating limping with these hands for two reasons (other than the fact that i never open limp in 6-max):
1) When u open, u will get called by hands like a10s, aj, kq, kj etc. whereas when u 3-bet, pretty much all hands u dominate r thrown away
2) Hands like aq and ak r most comfortable in heads up situations where u can feel safe with tptk whereas in multi-way limped pots, u'll have to be a lot more cautious.

[markuisis]

"2) If you flop a pair, you can comfortably get all in on the flop. The stack to pot ratio is nice, and the only hand you worry about is a set here- but because or your pre flop bet they dont have the implied odds to draw to a set anyway, let alone draw to a set with an A/K high board."

That's the thing though, when the flop comes a or k high and u 3-bet pf - its very unlikely u'll be getting action from hands u beat unless the guy is a complete fish (worse aces and kings fold out and underpairs arent going to give u action - so u'll either be close to even with a good draw or way behind a two pair or better hand). Also, if ur sum1 who auto c-bets and get auto stacked when flopping tptk or an overpair, then there r def good enough implied odds to take a flop with a pp or sc - especially in position.