15-30 live hand

[ILOVEPOKER929]

This hand came from the 15-30 full ring round by round game at Motor City Casino. One round of holdem was dealt and one round of Omaha high. Despite the fact that this was a full ring hand I will post it here becuz this was a steal situation and I like the Short handed forums better than the full game forums.

I had A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the button and everyone folded to me. I just want to point out that if this was a 1-2 structure game 10-20 or below, I would usually fold this hand in this spot becuz the rake at MCC is extremely high ($6 max rake+$1 bad beat+$1 tip).

However this was a 2/3 structure game and the SB was a rock, and the BB whom I had only known for roughly 45 minutes seemed to be a reasonably tight agressive player who was trying to play well. I also felt he was capable of bluffing but not to the point of overdoing it, but I felt he was generally a fearless player, but I also felt he would give up his BB a reasonble amount of time. So with too tight players in a 2/3 structure game I felt opening with A4o was a profitable play.

After I raised the SB folded as expected and the BB called. The flop came out J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. He checked and I bet and he called. At this point I had no idea how to play the turn. If this hand was online and I didnt know what to do on the turn, I may just check behind and call a river bet. In live play, at these stakes, I prefer betting the turn if I dont know what to do becuz these games are not nearly as aggressive as online.

The turn was a total blank card, the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I bet and he called. At this point I wasnt sure what he had, but my plan was to check the river UI.

The river was a J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. To my dismay, my opponent now bets the river. What would you do at this point and why?

[mastin1]

Well with the traits you described concerning this player I prefer to call... sure it is going to suck when he flips a weak J10 / J9 or maybe a hand like A8, but I want to know his range so next time I can capitalize... You are the button, he is in the BB, won't be the last time you have to play with him in this session...

[surfdoc]

His line is pretty odd for either a J or an 8. I like how you played it so far. Call the river and move on. Not too much to talk about here without a read.

[Entity]

I would call because he'll show up with busted draws some, a worse 4 occasionally, and rarely a huge hand (though occasionally). It's also beneficial, to an extent, to show that you aren't going to be bluffable. But mostly I think the call will show profit in a vacuum (I don't think he folds better if you're thinking about a raise).

Rob

[MacGuyV]

I don't think a live player of this description folding an 8 is totally out of the question & doesn't sound like he'll bluff 3bet so I guess he's thinking about a raise. I'd call though; folding's a distant 3rd cause like surf said who plays a J/8 like this?

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
His line is pretty odd for either a J or an 8. I like how you played it so far. Call the river and move on. Not too much to talk about here without a read.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that this hand isnt that interesting. Part of the reason I dont post many hands is becuz I have no idea what's interesting or not. It feels like weve all either talked about or faced every single situation this game has to offer. Does anyone else feel this way about limit holdem poker? That pretty much every situation has been covered a thousand times over and now all that is left to do is to simply execute in battle what we already know? Anyways about the actual hand...

When this guy donked the river, I still felt there was a reasonable chance he was bluffing. All top end straight draws missed, the FD missed, and I believed this guy was capable of bluffing, so I knew right away that I am not folding the river.

It is true that a broken FD or a straight draw should be discounted somewhat becuz he didnt check/raise the flop or make a play on the turn but this is still live middle limit poker where a flopped gutshot or FD is not percieved as a standard check/raise on this board like it is in the online world, so I would not discount these broken draws as heavily as I would if this hand was online.

Since Im not folding the river, its now between calling or raising. Since I knew I was atleast calling, I decided to invest an extra big bet and raise the river to try to get him to fold this hand range A4,55,6x,77,8x. For this raise to be profitable I need him to fold a better hand then mine more than 1 out of 8 times. BTW I ignored the SB portion of the pot since this amount roughly cancelled out the rake amount. I felt he would fold a better hand more than 1/8 so I went for it.

So I raised the river without hesitation and in perfect tempo and my opponent said in a nice manner "Nice hand, ya got me" And then he sloppily pushed 6 more chips in the middle to see what I had and I told him "Nice hand, you win" and he showed me T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and took down the pot.

I thought my opponent played his hand well. From my perspective, I'll never know for sure which line is best on the river. Ive thought about this river spot many times over throughout my poker career which is why it was so easy for me to raise the river in tempo. That doesnt mean I made the right play, but I think my play is defensible.

[Tryptamean]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you that this hand isnt that interesting. Part of the reason I dont post many hands is becuz I have no idea what's interesting or not. It feels like weve all either talked about or faced every single situation this game has to offer. Does anyone else feel this way about limit holdem poker? That pretty much every situation has been covered a thousand times over and now all that is left to do is to simply execute in battle what we already know?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that its hard to tell if a hand is interesting.

I hope one day I will have talked about or faced every single situation (or least most of them)... hopefully by then I will be good at poker

[Heisenb3rg]

[ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that this hand isnt that interesting. Part of the reason I dont post many hands is becuz I have no idea what's interesting or not. It feels like weve all either talked about or faced every single situation this game has to offer. Does anyone else feel this way about limit holdem poker? That pretty much every situation has been covered a thousand times over and now all that is left to do is to simply execute in battle what we already know?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I feel that way at times.
Then I run cold, and all that goes out the window and I get humbled pretty quickly :P

ILP if you are feeling that way about a lot of hands, try thinking about how you play the other hands in hero's range instead of just the current hand hero holds. Then , identify situatons where your range is really narrow/weak/strong. Finally, figure out how to balance your distribution; IE when to trade immediate value on some strong hands for boosting the value of the other hands in your range. Getting a sense for both "standard" plays and "optimal" plays is important. Too many people focus on "standard".

There's so little work done on this type of thinking in holdem, that I think there's a gold mine of stuff still to uncover. IMO the future of original poker theory will be more focused on optimal play than exploitve play.
If you haven't read mathematics of poker, do it.. Im sure someone with your reasoning will benefit huge from it.

As for the hand, betting the turn is necssary, because someone with that profile is not check raising draws very often on that turn, and peels a wide range. You can safely fold in a small pot.

On the river, many draws missed, which he may take a stab using a scare card. Or bet a marginal hand, using the J as protection. You are probabily behind, but it's worth a call.

I dont like raising without a better read, just because.. ppl dont fold, especially since your on the button [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It's very close though.. There's also some value with the intimidation factor.. You may scare him into not doing that in the future.

[gaming_mouse]

Reading this, my first thought is that he's bluffing, or has an 8 and is taking the "my opponent can't raise me on that scare card so i can safely bet" line, and that there is a decent chance he folds the 8 to a raise. So I like your play.

Looks like he might have realized that there was not only some value to a bet, but also some induced bluff raise equity as well, and he was right.

Pwned. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[DeathDonkey]

I can't believe people are talking about anyone folding an 8 here. In the current limit hold'em world everyone is a showdown monkey, the only reason to raise this river is to value raise a worse 4.

-DeathDonkey