Sicko Revisited

[Money2Burn]

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You are wrong because there are many people in Canada who do not have jobs, can not work due to medical illness or some other such reason, and all of these people get healthcare. They do not pay. I pay for them. Therefor, not everyone pays to go to the doctor.


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You said "I find the idea of paying to go to a doctor to be ludicrous" this implies that you don't believe a doctor should be paid for his services. After reading your replies I believe that this wasn't your intention. However, even when someone who doesn't pay taxes (which I would bet is a very small percentage of the population) goes in to see the doctor the doctor is still being compensated. You seem to think that the doctor should be forced to treat every patient that walks through their doors because they have a "right" to health care. I think this is terrible because it amounts to slavery of medical doctors. There are no two ways about it in my mind.


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I do disagree that healthcare through taxation is not benevolent.

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It's not benevolent because you are forcing people to pay for it. It sin't a case of "I'm giving this money to help you out of the goodness of my heart." The government is saying "We are going to take this money, squander part of it then pay for other random people's health services and if you resist then you are going to jail."

[Copernicus]

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Anyone in the US who NEEDS healthcare gets it. Just because they don't have a card with a number on it doesnt mean they don't get treated.

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I suppose all that stuff which pops up when I google is communist propaganda then...

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WASHINGTON POST :

When Abdul Karim Chowdhury, 89, and his wife Zahida Banoo, 75, arrived from Bangladesh more than two years ago, they thought medical care would be easy to find. But, Chowdhury said, "Our perceptions changed." Not eligible for Medicare or other assistance, he said they often had to set aside their pride and plead for reduced medical fees -- until they started visiting the [free, Muslim-set up] clinic.

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USA TODAY : As the Houston area struggles to deal with a rising tide of uninsured, it offers a lesson for the nation: Let the problem get out of hand — to a point where nearly 1 in 3 people have no coverage — and you won't just have a less healthy population. You'll have an overwhelmed health care system.

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SCIENCE.BLOG :
National surveys reflect a growing perception that the United States' uninsured can obtain proper health care through various "safety net" facilities. Not true says a study led by Harvard Medical School researchers.



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I don't think you understand that there is a difference between "proper care" and "need". If you want "proper care" meaning mammograms and routine physicals, pay for it by cutting your big mac consumption by 2/3rds for a month. You'll be healthier all around.

[mrick]

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Most of the the things used as criteria don't actually measure health care quality directly.

Disability-adjusted life expectency (DALE) level

Someone else noted in this thread that life expectancy is based upon so many things other than health care quality. The murder rate, size of cars on the road, smoking habits, how infant mortality is calculated, obesity levels, climate conditions, pollution levels, genetic predisposition of the populace, immigration patterns, water quality, do I need to go on?

[/ QUOTE ]No, you don't need to, because you are wrong. A country which has a lower life expectancy rate than another country is a country whose health system is generally worse than the other country. There is a crapload of factors which affect life expectancy (you omitted food habits, for instance) but DALE is a very good indicator as to how two health systems compare. And, as you can see, it is one criterion among many. Cumulatively these criteria paint a good picture of what you can expect, in general, from a country's health system, comparatively speaking.

Check out again the link about the methodology.

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Is it really a surprise that you get higher life expectancy in a near ideal climate like Spain's when compared to Norway?

[/ QUOTE ] Spain is ranked 5 and Norway 15. The difference is not big enough to distort the overall ranking. Germany, for example, at #25, is lower than Norway. Again, the difference is not earth-shaking. Spain ranks higher than Italy (#6) and Greece (#7) although these countries have approximately the same climates.

The criterion becomes significant with acute discrepancies, as between European countries and Russia (or African nations).

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If you look at the basic description you would come to the conclusion that a country with a life expectancy breakdown of 81/77/73 for the Upper, middle and lower classes would score worse than one that had a 73/72/71 break down. Does this have to do with the health care system itself? What about the breakdown of economic status in the country as a whole?

[/ QUOTE ]A system where the rewards of the system are more fairly distributed among the citizens is judged (by most of the world's citizens) to be a better system. If country A "distributes" life expectancy more widely among the citizens, it gets higher marks in this criterion. Country B could get a higher mark in the criterion of overall average life expectancy.




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Responsiveness


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OK, this is the first metric that attempts to directly measure a health care system, its not prefect, but lets call it a start. Do you want to guess what country is number 1 here?

[/ QUOTE ]The United States.

[pvn]

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You are wrong because there are many people in Canada who do not have jobs, can not work due to medical illness or some other such reason, and all of these people get healthcare. They do not pay. I pay for them. Therefor, not everyone pays to go to the doctor.

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Earlier...

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I find the idea of paying to go to a doctor to be ludicrous

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I'm confused.

[Copernicus]

"There is a crapload of factors which affect life expectancy (you omitted food habits, for instance) but DALE is a very good indicator as to how two health systems compare. And, as you can see, it is one criterion among many. Cumulatively these criteria paint a good picture of what you can expect, in general, from a country's health system, comparatively speaking."

not even close

[mrick]

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WASHINGTON POST :

USA TODAY :

SCIENCE.BLOG :

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I don't think you understand that there is a difference between "proper care" and "need". If you want "proper care" meaning mammograms and routine physicals, pay for it by cutting your big mac consumption by 2/3rds for a month. You'll be healthier all around.

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Didn't you read anything out of the links I gave? They are not about fat people looking for a painless diet or about models looking for plastic surgery. They are about the true needs of real people in a tough predicament!

And, by the way, I hope you're not implying that pap tests and mammograms are not very important exams --which should be part of every proper health care system.

[JuntMonkey]

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But, if I can't afford to eat or put a roof over my head the state should provide for my basic human rights.

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"Rights"?

What about comfortable blankets? An entertainment allowance? People need to unwind so the government should provide a television for every citizen, right? Internet access too obviously, we should all have free access to information at home at the touch of a button in a "reasonably comfortable" chair (determined by the government). What about dessert? Sex? Sex is one of the basic human needs on that pyramid thing isn't it? Free prostitutes for all? (That one I'd actually get behind, no pun intended).

[MarkD]

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You are wrong because there are many people in Canada who do not have jobs, can not work due to medical illness or some other such reason, and all of these people get healthcare. They do not pay. I pay for them. Therefor, not everyone pays to go to the doctor.

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Earlier...

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I find the idea of paying to go to a doctor to be ludicrous

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I'm confused.

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I didn't really think that original statement would be taken so literally. I'm fully aware that I pay for healthcare. I don't have to worry about going broke paying for some treatment if I happen to get very sick. Neither does anyone else. I like that.

I think I'll stick to strat forums as these arguments over semantics of statements are a little too pedantic for me.

[vhawk01]

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Of course you feel that way, that's how your teachers trained you to think.

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That's certainly possible. It's just as possible that American's feel private healthcare is better because you were told to believe that. I certainly won't deny the power of propaganada.

But, logically my believe is that healtcare is a basic human right and should be available to everyone.

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The bolded part isnt exactly nonsense but I HIGHLY doubt you'd actually agree with it if you considered the logical implications of such a right.

[vhawk01]

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You are wrong because there are many people in Canada who do not have jobs, can not work due to medical illness or some other such reason, and all of these people get healthcare. They do not pay. I pay for them. Therefor, not everyone pays to go to the doctor.

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Earlier...

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I find the idea of paying to go to a doctor to be ludicrous

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I'm confused.

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I didn't really think that original statement would be taken so literally. I'm fully aware that I pay for healthcare. I don't have to worry about going broke paying for some treatment if I happen to get very sick. Neither does anyone else. I like that.

I think I'll stick to strat forums as these arguments over semantics of statements are a little too pedantic for me.

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LOL are you serious? These arguments are BELOW you? I think you've got it a little bit backwards. These arguments might be a bit over your head. When you say you find the idea of paying for a doctor to be ludicrous, that is a statement that demands clarification. You seem to be under the impression that "the state" is some magical fairy entity that grants wishes and "satisfies your basic human rights" without you ever having to defend your choice of what those human rights are. It is EXTREMELY problematic to claim that healthcare is a basic human right. The reason for that? SOMEONE has to provide healthcare to you. You cant get it yourself. The same problem with food, but to a lesser extent. If you support a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT that demands some other person provide you with some service, there are logical implications to this.

Stop me when this is getting pedantic.