2 Questions

[wizexel22]

I've been looking at some magazines and I encountered a term I don't know. What does it mean to call "thin" or bet "thin"? It seemed like it means you call or bet with a marginal hand???

Also, I know the answer to most situations is "it depends", but on average, and in your experience, what holdings do people have when they bet or call a decent raise pre-flop and then immediately check in the dark? In my experience, that hand is often AK. Do other people see this a lot too? Or is it just coincidence in too small a sample.

[mr_hanky]

Question 1: yes

Question 2:it depends! It is less likely to be AK than all the other possible holdings because AK is outnumbered.

It depends on:
the position of the raiser/caller.
The aggressiveness of the raiser.
The looseness of the caller.
How often the player makes a continuation bet.
The texture of the flop.
The cards they have.
How you have been playing (passive/aggressive)
How many people see the flop

I could go on...

[Gordon Scott]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been looking at some magazines and I encountered a term I don't know. What does it mean to call "thin" or bet "thin"? It seemed like it means you call or bet with a marginal hand???

Also, I know the answer to most situations is "it depends", but on average, and in your experience, what holdings do people have when they bet or call a decent raise pre-flop and then immediately check in the dark? In my experience, that hand is often AK. Do other people see this a lot too? Or is it just coincidence in too small a sample.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes to the 1st part of your question. thin = marginal IMO.


I agree that a dark check may be AK but I think more often it is a pair trying to flop a set and trap the PFR with an overpair.

GS

[deucethree]

1- not so much a marginal hand as a marginal situation. something with very little or even neutral ev.

2- i think it's usually done with hands that are going to either hit very hard or miss completely. hands where if you hit you don't mind giving a free card. i'd think a suited ace might be a good canidate. some people might do it with a very strong hand that they're looking to get all their money in with regardless of the flop/board hoping the dark check gives the other person some rope to build/committ himself to a pot.

[deucethree]

also, i think checking dark for me has usually been more about sending a message. kind of like an, "ok, i know you're betting at every flop, i'm going to let you and then make my decision." it's not like there's a strategic advantage to it. it's psychological. but if there are hands i'd be less likely to do this with it would be hands that when they flop are usually going to flop vunerable, and i want to make sure i have the option of protecting my hand.

[wizexel22]

Thanks for the answers.

Yeah, a suited A or a small pocket pair does make more sense now that I think about it. Since if you hit an A or K with AK or don't hit a set with a decent pp, you would likely want to bet out since your 1 pair is pretty vulnerable. The idea to do it with a hand like Asuited or small pp where its a hand you might check either way cuz you'll hit the flop hard or miss it badly, sounds like a good strategy.

The psychological part you bring up is interesting too. As I really didn't care about these "dark" moves until recently when two guys got heads up pf and one checked dark and immediately the other guy put a bet out dark (again, this is preflop) again and the other guy folded (after the flop). I just thought this was fun, and so I started wondering what types of hands people do this with. Of course good or wild players can do it with any two cards, but I was wondering if there are cards that people generally like to do these "dark" moves with.

[btmagnetw]

i check dark from SB with numerous callers SO much just because there are so few situations i which leading out there is the right move.

[drzen]

Betting or calling thin generally means betting or calling when you are not certain you are +EV against villain's range. The notion is that you will make a little money over the long term but cannot conceivably be very much ahead.

I guess I'd expect a checker in the dark to have a small pair or suited connectors if they called a raise. (What deucethree said.) The player probably habitually slowplays when he flops a set.

If they bet preflop, hmmmm. Maybe JJ/TT, something like that. Basically, a hand that they had hoped to blindsteal with and hadn't contemplated callers, but will most likely call a bet with.

[ QUOTE ]
i check dark from SB with numerous callers SO much just because there are so few situations i which leading out there is the right move.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just think this is wrong for two reasons: first, if I am against few opponents, I'm sometimes going to try to steal on the right flop, and second, leading out is going to be right many of the times I'm going to be involved in the hand. Routinely checking hands you hit doesn't make as much money as betting and getting raised by an aggro player in later position. YMMV there though.