ANother razz noob question

[Donkey5layer]

playing 3/6 I have A34

there is a raise and i reraise to 6 he calls
he his showing a 3

next card he gets a 4 and i get a K
he bets...

Do i give up on the hand here or do i keep going because of the A34?

[RustyBrooks]

There is usually enough in the pot here to take one card off. If my cards were very live I will call against a somewhat fishier player without the re-raise on 3rd. Depending on where you're playing, there is going to be something like 5-6 sb in the pot after 3rd so when he bets you'll be getting something like 6:1 or 7:1.

Now, please never make the mistake of using showdown equity to solely influence your decision on an early street, but you are never more than a 4;1 dog here if he has a perfect 4-card wheel draw. He'll have paired some of the time, he'll have much less than a 4 card wheel some of the time (if he has a smooth 4 card 8 draw he's only ahead 2:1), and he'll be way ahead some of the time. I'm just using equity considerations to show that although you're behind, it's probably not as bad as you think.

[RustyBrooks]

By the way, this is covered in Sklansky's book, "Sklansky on Razz" which is part of the (out of print, but available used on amazon) book "Sklansky on Poker". I picked it up for $12 or something I think, and it's an easy short read.

[tinkerman]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, this is covered in Sklansky's book, "Sklansky on Razz" which is part of the (out of print, but available used on amazon) book "Sklansky on Poker". I picked it up for $12 or something I think, and it's an easy short read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, the book is excellent, though Rusty does a bit more of the explaination of why its correct to call here, though if its not complete/raised then its best to fold.

I'll rarely rise a complete on 3rd as many people catch bad on 4th and still call a bet which is a mistake. By raising yourself means they'll end up making a correct call. Let bad players make bad plays and collect the money.

[RustyBrooks]

Whether I raise a completion on 3rd has most to do with what I know about the player, as well as who's left to act after me.
* If I am the last low card to act I often call, sometimes raise
* Just calling makes it more correct for people behind you to call with hands you'd probably prefer they fold.
* If there are more low cards to act I tend toward raising to get hand heads up.
* However if there are a bunch of donkeys to my left, who are going to call 2 with any hand they'd call 1 with, I still raise sometimes, but less.
* At all times I am trying to avoid playing big pots multiway.

I will sometimes call if I brick if I have 3 live wheel cards, especially if my pairs outs are face up. It's never wrong to fold in this situation but it's often not too wrong to call.

It's true, in Sklansky's book he just lays out kind of a silly rule of thumb for this situation, I prefer to think about the reason behind the rule so that I can apply it to sitations that the rule does not completely cover.

For real razz noobs: it is never terribly wrong to fold 4th in the case the OP describes. Folding is, at most, a very small mistake. Your opponent would have to have started with a bad hand pretty often for folding to be a big mistake.

Also note that steal-situation hands have totally different considerations and rules. Everything I talk about here is assuming that both you and your opponent are in a situation where you should reasonably expect both of you to have quality hands.

[tinkerman]

[ QUOTE ]
I will sometimes call if I brick if I have 3 live wheel cards, especially if my pairs outs are face up. It's never wrong to fold in this situation but it's often not too wrong to call.

It's true, in Sklansky's book he just lays out kind of a silly rule of thumb for this situation, I prefer to think about the reason behind the rule so that I can apply it to sitations that the rule does not completely cover.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with most of your text about counting for other factors of the table and the low cards behind. I'm quite happy to fold on 4th and in many ways am happy for this. I'm not saying its the best style, but it is the way I tend to play. It could be mainly influence by the text in the SS books.

If you are heads up and only completed on 3rd and you brick and they catch good, it is rare that you are correct to call.

[RustyBrooks]

I agree, it is always correct to fold, and very rarely correct to call. I sometimes can't resist it, though, and in some cases I don't think it's too terribly awful.