Play a Hand With the Masters #3 Flop B

[Exitonly]

Is that a somewhat clever gimmick account?

edit: irony = mispelling clever

[badplayer]

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Is that a somewhat clever gimmick account?

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Alas, no. It's my one and only 2+2 account.

Long time lurker with nothing substantial to contribute (and now you see why)

[Exitonly]

alright, i was asking if it was a gimmick not cause i wanted to make fuun of you, just i didnt want to type up a response if it was a joke.

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To me, the small check-raise suggests a strong draw, an over-pair, or a complete bluff.

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Sweet! What is bad about this scenario? We are ahead, and we have position.


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At this point, I only see two options: push all-in or fold.

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Push will get some hands we beat (one pair hands mediocre draws maybe an overpair) to fold. Which isn't the worst thing in the world, but we'd rather have them in there heads up with us, giving us more chips. Also, hands taht beat us, will call, so there arent really any positives.

And folding, ,you said the hands you put the guy on, and we're ahead of them, why would we fold?

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it could be quite vulnerable to a heart or even an overcard.

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Well we get to see what he does on the future streets, we can make more decision when the heart comes, or the turn blanks. And we can't be playing scared of 'an overcard' if he's drawing to 3 outs we should fold?

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At this early stage of the tournament, the most important thing I can do is to survive. I just don't see the point in putting everything at risk on this one hand, even if we have the best hand right now. If villian has a heart draw, there is about a one-in-three chance that this will be the last hand. If villian has an overpair, there is at least a one-in-four chance that this will be our last hand.

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AKA. ~75% of time we'll have double up. That's awesome and we'll be in great shape for a while. This isn't a gamble, Villain is the one 'gambling' here, we're just getting value out of our hands. If we don't do this where do you draw the line?

[beenben]

1) I'm inclined to fold. I'm not married to bottom two pair. I'm behind to a zillion things for which I would need one of my four outs to a full house, and if he has a set of 99 they aren't really outs. I would not call. My second choice would be to raise to 1000.

2) he has a str8, or overcards or 99 or bigger two pair, or a big flush draw like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

3) plans for future streets at this point would be too speculative.

[EverettKings]

No one min raises and expects you to fold. He very clearly expects a call here, so what does that mean?

Well, its a funky way to play a draw, since he's not exactly pricing us out. I mean I'd expect a pop to 4-500 if he were on a draw or something. Possible though, just goofy.

Some weird top pair hand? This could work, though usually with a hand like T9 he'd be raising more on this crazy board especially with so many overs that can fall. He did call a preflop raise so overpairs, big ones especially, make some sense.

Another two pair? A set? This could be ok, but again on this board I'd expect a bigger raise, or just a smooth call. Again its possible but a goofy line.

68 makes sense, but I'm obv not crediting him for the nuts just yet especially with the preflop call out of position. I guess he could also have air and be looking for weakness to pick off on the turn. If he just outright checkraised us it could be seen as a resteal and would create a big pot OOP where he's the clear strong aggressor. Not good.


The hands that make most sense here are fat overpairs, namely KK and AA. But lots of other stuff can fit. In any case, a reraise makes problems and if he has one of these hands, a scare card will slow you BOTH down. And if a blank hits, all the easier to stack him. So as everyone has said I'd call and rasie most turns.

Everett

[badplayer]

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AKA. ~75% of time we'll have double up. That's awesome and we'll be in great shape for a while. This isn't a gamble, Villain is the one 'gambling' here, we're just getting value out of our hands. If we don't do this where do you draw the line?

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To say that I play scared is an understatement for sure. And it's one of the many reasons I've never won a tournament (having played my 400th just the other night).

Sure, we beat the hands I put villian on (heart draw, straight draw, an overpair). Notice, I've conveniently neglected the unlikely hands that have us beat or are most likely to win (97, 95, 68, 99, 55, 77, 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and a few I might be missing).

But okay, I call the raise. Then I get horribly confused and usually don't know what to do.

Suppose the turn is a heart and villian goes all-in. Easy muck? Okay, I guess.

Suppose the turn is a heart and villian checks? Check behind? Or make a small bet?

Suppose the turn is the ace of clubs and villian bets the pot? Another easy call? Not for me.

Suppose it's another nine? Then what? If villian makes any bet, I'm worried about being counterfeited.

Suppose the turn is a total blank (deuce of spades, let's say) and villian pushes.

In short, I don't know how to play poker. That's why I like "push or fold". It's one thing having position. It's another thing to know what to do with it. Sadly, I still don't always know.

Your question "where do you draw the line?" is an excellent one. I see your point that this could be an opportunity to double-up. Since I'm a "glass is half-empty" guy, I see it as a way to blow my entire stack.

[Exitonly]

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Suppose the turn is a heart and villian goes all-in. Easy muck? Okay, I guess.

Suppose the turn is a heart and villian checks? Check behind? Or make a small bet?

Suppose the turn is the ace of clubs and villian bets the pot? Another easy call? Not for me.

Suppose it's another nine? Then what? If villian makes any bet, I'm worried about being counterfeited.

Suppose the turn is a total blank (deuce of spades, let's say) and villian pushes.


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I think if you think about these situations you could think up a good way to handle each of them. Just don't panis, and think through your options. If situations are hard you don't get better by choosing paths that avoid them, you get better by learning to make the hard decisions better.

[CardSharpCook]

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His raise is suspect. It's either a bluff or the nuts 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Maybe 99 but I wouldn't play it that way. It could also be a weak hand that is trying to see if you were on a total bluff. I never play a hand this way, so it's hard for me to speculate. He's giving us odds to draw to so many hands even if he had any of the above hands. More than anything, it means that he's a donk. So I would be willing to play deeper into the hand against him. But for now, I'd call. Gotta goto bed. But I'll speculate some more tomorrow.

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So you don't think he raises A9 here? There are a large number of hands that he doesn't believe he is bluffing with when he raises. True, there are a number of people who make this raise merely to probe whehter or not you want to go any deeper, but most people play their hands. He is trying to define his hand and yours. Let's say you are the villian and you have 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. How would you play this flop? Better yet, what are 3 reasonable flop/turn strategies for playing this hand?

[CardSharpCook]

This is the entire original quote with my comments in black.

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1) I'm inclined to fold. I'm not married to bottom two pair. I'm behind to a zillion things for which I would need one of my four outs to a full house, and if he has a set of 99 they aren't really outs. I would not call. My second choice would be to raise to 1000.
Why are you jumping to monsters? Do you always assume that your villian has the nuts when he raises? You may be behind to a dozen hands, but you are ahead of several hundred. If you were the villian, how would you feel about A9? Would you raise with TT? A two pair hand like this, a hand nearly invisible to your opponent, is a huge opportunity. A wide range of hands actually believe they are ahead right now. Another wide range of hands has a nice draw to the turn and would like to use their outs to give them strength and take it down now.

2) he has a str8, or overcards or 99 or bigger two pair, or a big flush draw like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].We are behind to 99,77,55,86,97,95. That happens to be 36 of a possible 1300 starting hands. And I don't think 95o is very likely.

3) plans for future streets at this point would be too speculative. Can't we assume some things? Isn't it likely that villian will bet regardless? We can have plans for various types of hands. A black 2 adds 12 more hands to be concerned about (and I don't worry much about 92 or 22 at this point). Can't we have a plan for doing something proactive on a black 2 turn?

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[CardSharpCook]

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No one min raises and expects you to fold. He very clearly expects a call here, so what does that mean?

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You've never raised AJo PF and then folded to a chk/rz on a Q75 board? I am much more often in the postition of the PFR, not the BB caller. I'm not sure I understand his thinking either. If it were me, I'd 2.5 or 3X strassa's raise with a wide range of hands. A smaller raise keeps the pot small so that it is easier to work with on the turn. It also shows considerable strength. It is a bet that says, "I'm fine if you call, but you're not gonna see the turn for cheap." Also, if I am the villian, I'm not going to immediately jump to the conclusion that Strassa has a flush draw. In fact, IF strassa was suited, there is a less than 1 in 4 chance his suit came up. An 8 or a 6? Yeah, I'm a little concerned. But isn't it far more likely Strassa just wiffed with ATo? Little does Strassa know, but I have A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He only has 3 outs, and 2 cards are going to be real trouble for him. Yeah, I don't mind if he calls this flop raise.

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The hands that make most sense here are fat overpairs, namely KK and AA.

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Does this really make sense? Villian has chosen not to raise PF with these hands, but instead flat call and hope you bet the flop so he can chk/rz you? An overpair is possible, but isn't 88-JJ far more likely? You bet 140, he raised 160 to 300. When he raised to 300, the pot-o-meter on Stars showed 280. In one way of thinking, he just bet pot. The other way of thinking is that he min-raised you. He didn't though. He didn't click the auto-button raise, he carefully thought out and typed in 300. This isn't a min-raise.