Burning cards

[jeffnc]

This is a sometimes pet peeve, and sometimes source of amusement. It's a peeve when it slows down the game.

The issue is burning cards, and the reason for doing so. The reason is so that in case the next card is marked in some way, no players in the hand will be able to tell what the next card dealt will be.

No one seems to know this basic idea though, and the ensuing hijinx are sometimes ridiculous. To wit:

- A card was dealt face up by mistake. In that case, usually everyone agrees that that will be the "burn card".

- Anxious dealers will sometimes burn and deal the turn and river cards (face down) immediately on the flop, so they have no more work to do other than flip the cards over.

- "Did I burn a card?" "I don't know, I think so." "No, I don't think he did." "Yes he did!" "No! He still needs to burn one." "Misdeal!"

The vast majority of home game players can't grasp the idea that the cards dealt are random (or are supposed to be, assuming there's no cheating.) They think the cards are supposed to come out in some predetermined magical order. If that order is messed with, ho boy! Order must be preserved. No thought given to why burn cards actually exist to begin with.

[mxp2004]

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The issue is burning cards, and the reason for doing so. The reason is so that in case the next card is marked in some way, no players in the hand will be able to tell what the next card dealt will be.

No one seems to know this basic idea though, and the ensuing hijinx are sometimes ridiculous. To wit:

- Anxious dealers will sometimes burn and deal the turn and river cards (face down) immediately on the flop, so they have no more work to do other than flip the cards over.

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This cracked me up the first time I saw it done. Like you, I know the reason for burning cards. As you said, it's to prevent players from taking advantage of marked cards and knowing which card will be dealt next. It completely defeats the purpose of burning cards if all five cards are laid on the table before any betting starts.

This summer, I was invited to a new home game that, like many, passed the deal around the table. During the game, one of the players shuffled, passed out the private cards, and then promptly dealt all five community cards face down, burning cards at the "correct" intervals as he did. I started laughing and said, "do you have a meeting to go to?" He looked at me like I had three heads.

I've been back to this game a few times, and it appears to be a widespread practice. I don't bother to mention anything or explain why what they are doing is ridiculous.

But here is the other thing that cracks me up: the hostess for this game is a poker nazi. She corrects everyone for every infraction, large and small, from string bets to keeping big chips in plain view. Amazingly, however, this practice of "express" dealing seems perfectly fine to her.

[rminusq]

I can't stand people who do this. I was playing a home game and it was down to 3 people and two people who had busted were dealing alternate hands to speed it up. One of them laid out the board after the deal, and I said "Could you not do that? There's no good reason and it defeats the actual purpose of burning cards." She didn't get what the problem was and the host essentially said "Whatever, it's no big deal." A few hands later, she does it again and the button folds his hand directly, though accidentally, into the board that has been put on the table. She stopped pre-laying the board after that.

[Small Fry]

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- "Did I burn a card?" "I don't know, I think so." "No, I don't think he did." "Yes he did!" "No! He still needs to burn one." "Misdeal!"


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This is why it's good practice to keep burn cards separate from the muck.

[DavidNB]

Sometimes at the tourney at the local bar someone will burn the card right away. aka, deal the flop then burn the next card so they will be ready to flip the turn card. When I see this happen, I stop and ask the dealer to put the burn card back on the deck (if someone lese doesn't beat me to it.) I'll wait untill the card is returned before acting on my hand.

[pfapfap]

This is a tough one to handle. At someone else's game, I don't say anything. It's always someone just fooling around, just like the people who like to peek at the upcoming cards. The folks that do this are big donators, and I don't want to upset them. At my own game, I try to keep that from happening, hinting that it can cause problems and errors, so best not to tempt fate. It's difficult to address without negatively affecting the mood of the game, or at least of a player who most likely is enjoying him/herself and giving away chips.

[ShannonRyu]

OK, to address the random cards comment: I am a believer in the 'fated' cards. I believe that after the deal, I am to get to play the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th and 8th card, without exception. The concept of 'randomness' is crazy now because of computers and the internet, but poker was designed with 52 cards, shuffled, cut and dealt. Why not just spread out the cards face down on the table and say "who wants to pick the river?"... because the NEXT card is supposed to be the NEXT card. Maybe I'm old fashioned.

As to the pre-burners: Especially at another game (not just at my own) I'll correct the dealer, politely, informing him of the purpose of the burn card, and since those aren't my cards and I don't know you, keep the burn card on top until it is time to burn. I'd never return to a game which handled it differently (anyone can buy marked cards, and they are not that expensive anymore).

[pfapfap]

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"who wants to pick the river?"

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Aside from it leading to card marking, I'm okay with this.

What about cards #2, 3, 4, 6, and 8 are special to you? What if somebody is about to get dealt a hand, but flips a coin to decide if he'll stay or not. That coin determines what cards you will get. If it's okay either way, what's wrong with any other order? Why not deal one card around the table clockwise and another counterclockwise? Or burn before every card on the flop?

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without exception

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If you take this stance, you're pretty much setting yourself up for crazy monkey tilt if you're ever in a situation with an early burn & turn, or four cards on the flop.

They're just cards. It's what you do with them that matters.

[jeffnc]

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The concept of 'randomness' is crazy now because of computers and the internet

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I have no idea what you're talking about. Randomness was around for millions of years before the internet. What does "crazy" mean?

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Why not just spread out the cards face down on the table and say "who wants to pick the river?"

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It makes no difference, but it would be WAY too slow.

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Maybe I'm old fashioned.

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No, just wrong :-)

[psandman]

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Why not just spread out the cards face down on the table and say "who wants to pick the river?"... because the NEXT card is supposed to be the NEXT card.

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The only problem with this method is that it creates the opportunity to cheat through the use of marked cards.

Your beliefs are merely superstition.

There is no such thing as random. Random does not exist. What we strive for is unpredictibility.