Standard?

[Absolution]

This is standard for me and I don't think this relates to previous discussions on playing passively heads-up.

[Absolution]

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On a side note, if a good tag bets this turn, raising is suicide, because it's going to be a bet/3bet so often.

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I agree with this. The more competent someone is, the less likely this becomes a blocking bet or bluff. If a competent player donked that flop I would already be suspicious though and might have played the flop differently.

[TheHip41]

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"The turn I just call down. You will get 2BB everytime, regardless of what he has."

100% not true

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so you say a guy that takes this line is going to donk the flop, call a raise, donk the turn, and check fold the river?

I have a billion hands agasint these guys at 5-10, they aren't betting the turn, getting called, and check folding the river with a pair.

They aren't betting the flop, get raised, donking the turn, and then c/f the river with a draw.

It's all about momentum. If they have a missed draw, and think you have AQ, they are going to bet the river.

If you disagree, then just raise the turn.

[jstill]

I always raise the turn here or wait and raise the river. I dont really care if i get bet 3bet on the turn occasionally for 2 reasons.

The rare times we are bet 3bet here we usually have 8 outs . 99 88 usually 3 ball pre and 98 is 3 times as likely as 33. This turn donk is usually a weaker hand anyways, which maybe means we should call and raise a blank? So the frequency of a bet 3bet is the first reason the second is how we are doing against that range and the size of it (which dictates the frequency). Plus sometimes this is a retarded worse overpair, slightly more often than 99 88 or AA id say.

[jstill]

I think an interesting question is if we are bet 3bet on the turn (or cr'd) are there any non K rivers we are raising? a 4 or a 3? We pulled ahead slightly against his range and the two top sets should probably be discounted a far amount vs most villains. Are u more likely to raise the river after a bet 3bet or a check raise (guessing cr)?

[sethypooh21]

Not raising the turn here sucks. Hard. If you get 3-bet, you get 3-bet, but you'll have 2 or more likely 8 outs anyway. And not raising leaves so much value on the table when villain thinks he's valuetowning 66/A9 here.

[danzasmack]

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"The turn I just call down. You will get 2BB everytime, regardless of what he has."

100% not true

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so you say a guy that takes this line is going to donk the flop, call a raise, donk the turn, and check fold the river?

I have a billion hands agasint these guys at 5-10, they aren't betting the turn, getting called, and check folding the river with a pair.

They aren't betting the flop, get raised, donking the turn, and then c/f the river with a draw.

It's all about momentum. If they have a missed draw, and think you have AQ, they are going to bet the river.

If you disagree, then just raise the turn.

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One general criticism I have is that people seem to always assume a passive line will get you paid off that people will 3-barrel you almost 100% of the time.

1st off this is bad news for when you don't have KK. A big advantage of being aggro and showing down super light is that people will try and quit bluffing you. What is the a-typical response to the monthly "how do i beat this 50/40?" - it's tighten up. And you know what? That's wrong. But who cares about that point, the point is that people will tighten up more. They will check/call their draws here more so when i have AJ i'm getting a cheap showdown and winning UI. Because "this idiot (us) isn't folding."

But then when it comes to this passive approach people assume that with no read someone is firing 3-barrels into us?

"so you say a guy that takes this line is going to donk the flop, call a raise, donk the turn, and check fold the river?"

Well I think he can check/call the river, no? All depends on how many times OP has raised this flop with AK.

"I have a billion hands agasint these guys at 5-10, they aren't betting the turn, getting called, and check folding the river with a pair."

They can check/call right? And they can check/raise? They can donk again too.

"They aren't betting the flop, get raised, donking the turn, and then c/f the river with a draw."

Now this i think is very possible.

What this all boils down to is how you've played every other hand in this spot and what you do with your whole range here. I for one am very against just calling down with strong hands against irrational action (bet/call bet/3bet is a pretty crazy line and one i think only someone who is a good thinking player would take vs. me with a hand like 89 here). I think it makes every other hand I play much more difficult. You have no idea how easy of a raise KK is for me in this spot after I've shown down 78 here the last 4 times.

[sethypooh21]

Great post Danza.

If I may, cliff notes: KK crushes your range in this spot (or at least it should, IMO), making this a very easy raise.

[danzasmack]

yeah.

Even for a lot of tags it still does though if you're the type to raise KQ for a free card on this flop 100% of the time. Which a lot of you are (not a criticism, an observation).

[milesdyson]

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On this particular river card, I'm raise/capping the river.

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QFT <font color="white">lol?</font>