What's your line

mvoss · #1 06-17-2007, 09:36 AM

Villain is unknown, 2nd orbit at the table and not much has happened.

5-handed 5/10

Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, CO raises, OTB folds, Hero raises, BB folds, CO calls.

Flop is Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets, CO raises...

What's your line?

aargh57 · #2 06-17-2007, 11:20 AM

I fold. My thinking is... Pot's small, If I'm ahead villain has 6 outs (maybe more if he's got a bdfd). If I'm behind I'm way behind. I'm OOP vs an unknown.

BTW, is this a standard 3 bet vs an unknown in 5/10? At 3/6 I fold this vs tight raisers and decent TAG's and 3 bet vs LAG's or really poor players. I'm sure it probably is though.

vmacosta · #3 06-17-2007, 11:24 AM

mvoss,
I don't have pstove with me, but try {22+,AJ+,Q9+,A4}. My guess is that allows you to call and fold to a turn bet (since some cards will scare the little pairs and unpaired hands may take a freebie). You may even consider donking an A turn, but check with others on that cuz maybe that only works live.

jstill · #4 06-17-2007, 11:29 AM

dude dont fold this preflop ever argh

I also think u have it backwards. 3betting players who never fold postflop is probably worse than 3betting playres who are more likely to fold overs when they miss (which is often 2/3s of the time) and gain fold equity against better PPs on 2 hi card flops. vs real loosies or lags i think not 3betting here is preferable and picking and chosing ur flops/ boards to peel or cr. maybe i have this preflop stuff wrong tho?

flops tough without a read i let it go for now or call and fold the turn (id be more likely to call the flop raise on Q99 for example), some players this flop raise is only air (or at least more than enought to justify a CD).

I think somewhere in there tho maybe 99+ we have to call tihs down as a default becuz the line is so weak? when there are enough worse PPs that would/ could play this way (cuz they do a lot, wanting to fold AK AJ ect) we just cant fold i think with the overlay from the pot. its very important to watch what people are raising u with off the flop when u 3bet out of the blinds (or cr u with when ur the pf3). so critical.

mvoss · #5 06-17-2007, 11:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I fold. My thinking is... Pot's small, If I'm ahead villain has 6 outs (maybe more if he's got a bdfd). If I'm behind I'm way behind. I'm OOP vs an unknown.

BTW, is this a standard 3 bet vs an unknown in 5/10? At 3/6 I fold this vs tight raisers and decent TAG's and 3 bet vs LAG's or really poor players. I'm sure it probably is though.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is a standard 3-bet against unknown CO openers. My default raising range for an unknown in the CO is about 27% against which we have about 50% equity.

Also, this pot is not that small, I'm getting 10-1 on a flop call here.

vmacosta · #6 06-17-2007, 11:35 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
I fold. My thinking is... Pot's small, If I'm ahead villain has 6 outs (maybe more if he's got a bdfd). If I'm behind I'm way behind. I'm OOP vs an unknown.

BTW, is this a standard 3 bet vs an unknown in 5/10? At 3/6 I fold this vs tight raisers and decent TAG's and 3 bet vs LAG's or really poor players. I'm sure it probably is though.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is a standard 3-bet against unknown CO openers. My default raising range for an unknown in the CO is about 27% against which we have about 50% equity.

Also, this pot is not that small, I'm getting 10-1 on a flop call here.

[/ QUOTE ]
quit talking and do the stove calc.

mvoss · #7 06-17-2007, 11:43 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
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I fold. My thinking is... Pot's small, If I'm ahead villain has 6 outs (maybe more if he's got a bdfd). If I'm behind I'm way behind. I'm OOP vs an unknown.

BTW, is this a standard 3 bet vs an unknown in 5/10? At 3/6 I fold this vs tight raisers and decent TAG's and 3 bet vs LAG's or really poor players. I'm sure it probably is though.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is a standard 3-bet against unknown CO openers. My default raising range for an unknown in the CO is about 27% against which we have about 50% equity.

Also, this pot is not that small, I'm getting 10-1 on a flop call here.

[/ QUOTE ]
quit talking and do the stove calc.

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LOL...I have about 30% equity on the flop against the range you've given. FWIW I think my choice on the flop is between calling and folding the turn and calling down. I don't want to let it go right away as I think I see too many flop raises with all kinds of hands on paired boards to let this go. Also, on paired boards with a more drawy texture than this one I consider calling down to be very standard.

I guess my question is, do you guys think it's possible to narrow down villains hand range enough if he bets again on the turn to let my hand go?

jstill · #8 06-17-2007, 11:53 AM

fwiw my default here for 3betting in the BB is 77 or 88 + lower than that would depend on player characteristics for me.

im not so sure just 3betting when we re likely to have greater than 50% equity is good enough truthfully not knowing anything about how the player plays postflop. I think the positional disadvantage with lower PPs outweighs the value initiative may have to make him make mistakes (fold incorrectly after the flop, i dont think this will occur a lot with the type of hand we have, sometimes tho, it actually will occur more often the lower our PP for all those KQx flops we get a higher PP to fold), i could be wrong about which factor outweighs which however.

Its reasonable to suspect what mite be a +EV preflop play just based on equity could make a hand play less EV postflop vs specific opponents, not sure im rite here tho. Id be curious about winrates with varying AFs in these spots with these kind of holdings (mid -low PPs BB vs a CO or button open).

mvoss · #9 06-17-2007, 11:58 AM

I'm an idiot.

vmacosta · #10 06-17-2007, 12:03 PM

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I fold. My thinking is... Pot's small, If I'm ahead villain has 6 outs (maybe more if he's got a bdfd). If I'm behind I'm way behind. I'm OOP vs an unknown.

BTW, is this a standard 3 bet vs an unknown in 5/10? At 3/6 I fold this vs tight raisers and decent TAG's and 3 bet vs LAG's or really poor players. I'm sure it probably is though.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is a standard 3-bet against unknown CO openers. My default raising range for an unknown in the CO is about 27% against which we have about 50% equity.

Also, this pot is not that small, I'm getting 10-1 on a flop call here.

[/ QUOTE ]
quit talking and do the stove calc.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL...I have about 30% equity on the flop against the range you've given. FWIW I think my choice on the flop is between calling and folding the turn and calling down. I don't want to let it go right away as I think I see too many flop raises with all kinds of hands on paired boards to let this go. Also, on paired boards with a more drawy texture than this one I consider calling down to be very standard.

I guess my question is, do you guys think it's possible to narrow down villains hand range enough if he bets again on the turn to let my hand go?

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30% is enough for me to showdown most of the time. You'll be getting 7:2 on a calldown and his range won't narrow *that* much since it's a steal/resteal situation.

I think I decided if an A comes on the turn you need to c/f.