KK in NL cash

jeffnc · #1 03-06-2007, 04:00 PM

Assuming healthy stacks of about the normal max buy in or more, and stakes of $1/2 live or .50/1 or 1/2 online, I'm questioning the wisdom of getting it all in with kings. Basically everything I've read says you should be willing to get all your chips in with KK. But checking my results, I see that every time I've gotten it in with kings I've seen aces. (Note, as I said earlier this is "healthy" stacks. Short stacks, like $40 in a $200 game don't count.) Are players just too tight nowadays? Is a third or fourth raise just a dead giveaway now?

When I've gotten it all in with AA, I've only gotten called by KK or AA. One time live I went all in against a really bad player with QQ, but he had KK. Another time live, I put in the fourth raise all in with AA and got called by KK. The player to my left said loud enough for me to hear "I would have folded KK so fast there..." These are $1/2 players who are otherwise not that good. It just seems they are super sensitive to this sort of preflop aggression now.

Online I have many more results - 11 occurrences with KK and each time (I was called) I've run into AA. The hands have played out "normally" - large raise, large reraise, then either one more reraise followed by all in, or straight to all in.

Playing the hand differently (waiting to the flop) won't change much I don't think. Assuming a large percentage of your stack was in preflop (at least 25%) and assuming no ace flops, theoretically you should still be able to push the flop and even if called by a set, the set will be unprofitable in the long run. But in this case you will virtually always be called by aces if you push the flop, because aces should be safe from sets by the same reasoning.

So my question, have times changed? Or are my results just variance, and are other players seeing radically different results? Are you getting called by AK or QQ/JJ enough to make up for AA? In my sample, KK is hugely -EV so far (when getting all in preflop).

SEATTLEJAZZ · #2 03-06-2007, 04:23 PM

NOW LET ME JUST TELL YOU. I AM PROBABLY GOING TO BE THE ONLY PERSON THAT REPLYS TO THIS STUPID POST. HOW ARE YOU NOT GOING TO GET ALL YOUR MONEY IN WITH KK PREFLOP EVERYTIME. IF YOU ARE -EV WITH KK THEN YOU SHOULD STOP PLAYING POKER ALL TOGETHER. YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN EXTREMELY GOOD READ ON A PLAYER OR A SIXTH SENSE.

ItalianFX · #3 03-06-2007, 04:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So my question, have times changed?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, KK is still a very large favorite, unless you're playing the wrong form of poker.

[ QUOTE ]
In my sample

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is? Let me guess, pretty small.

[ QUOTE ]
NOW LET ME JUST TELL YOU. I AM PROBABLY GOING TO BE THE ONLY PERSON THAT REPLYS TO THIS STUPID POST. HOW ARE YOU NOT GOING TO GET ALL YOUR MONEY IN WITH KK PREFLOP EVERYTIME. IF YOU ARE -EV WITH KK THEN YOU SHOULD STOP PLAYING POKER ALL TOGETHER. YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN EXTREMELY GOOD READ ON A PLAYER OR A SIXTH SENSE.

[/ QUOTE ]

In English, you have a small sample size and need to play more. Stop being results-oriented.

The deck doesn't care what hand you just had or what hand your opponent just had. Online poker isn't rigged and neither is live poker. Running into AA with KK is just variance, and I doubt it has been every time. If it has been, well, that's just crazy and extremely bad luck for you. If you think that KK is a bad hand, you should stop playing poker.

One time I was playing in a live poker room with my friend sitting across from me. I find QQ. I do my thing, he calls. Flop comes KxQ. We throw some chips around, I feel like I have him beat. We flip over the cards, he has KK! What the hell are the chances!? That's poker, bad luck for me, good luck for him, bad variance for me. I wasn't folding unless I had a huge read on him, which my read was that he would do that with AK, or just top pair. Oh well. I still won over the course of that session because I am a better player than he is.

jeffnc · #4 03-06-2007, 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
NOW LET ME JUST TELL YOU. I AM PROBABLY GOING TO BE THE ONLY PERSON THAT REPLYS TO THIS STUPID POST. HOW ARE YOU NOT GOING TO GET ALL YOUR MONEY IN WITH KK PREFLOP EVERYTIME. IF YOU ARE -EV WITH KK THEN YOU SHOULD STOP PLAYING POKER ALL TOGETHER.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, the shift key is right below the caps lock.

Am I speaking to morons? What is it with you guys who get kicks out of looking for something to flame? "How are you not going to get all your money in with KK?" That's your big well reasoned reply? Wow, thanks a lot.

jeffnc · #5 03-06-2007, 05:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No, KK is still a very large favorite, unless you're playing the wrong form of poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Says who? Based on what? Obviously it's a huge favorite against random hands, but after the third raise you are not playing random hands. I've read what you've wrote, I already told you that. I'm asking for some modern evidence, not regurgitation.

[ QUOTE ]
In my sample Which is? [ QUOTE ]
Let me guess, pretty small.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

My "sample size" is bigger than you think, and my impression includes more than sample size. That's because my "sample size" includes watching all the other all ins at the tables.

But here's the thing. Your sample size must be small too. So how did you come to your conclusion? Results oriented? Or just listening to conventional wisdom?

[ QUOTE ]
In English, you have a small sample size and need to play more. Stop being results-oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[ QUOTE ]
Running into AA with KK is just variance, and I doubt it has been every time. If it has been, well, that's just crazy and extremely bad luck for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

How would you know that? Based on your sample?

[ QUOTE ]
If you think that KK is a bad hand, you should stop playing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's it. I think KK is a bad hand, nice work Sherlock. Tell you what, if you can't form logical conclusions from English statements, maybe you should stop replying in poker forums.

Times change and attitudes change. Online games are tighter than they used to be. Players gain experience and play differently than they used to. People play way more aggressively in tournaments nowadays than conventional wisdom says they should. etc.

And it seems to me, players are starting to become much more leery of putting all their chips in with JJ or AK. When I hold AA, I'm no longer seeing those hands like I was 2 years ago. I'm asking for other experiences and trends, not more results-oriented attacks from people who can't figure out my question, not idiotic knee-jerk reaction to someone hitting one of your little buttons.

Rev. Good Will · #6 03-06-2007, 05:10 PM

jeffnc,

why did you even post a question? ItalianFX had a well thought out, non-flame remark, and you go off in such a bad tone.

jeffnc · #7 03-06-2007, 05:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why did you even post a question?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I want to know the answer? Why do you think I posted it?

[ QUOTE ]
ItalianFX had a well thought out, non-flame remark, and you go off in such a bad tone.

[/ QUOTE ]

"If you think that KK is a bad hand, you should stop playing poker"

That smart-ass part you mean?

Wilco666 · #8 03-06-2007, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why did you even post a question?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I want to know the answer? Why do you think I posted it?

[ QUOTE ]
ItalianFX had a well thought out, non-flame remark, and you go off in such a bad tone.

[/ QUOTE ]

"If you think that KK is a bad hand, you should stop playing poker"

That smart-ass part you mean?

[/ QUOTE ]You are going to make a lot of friends on the interweb.

ItalianFX · #9 03-06-2007, 05:32 PM

jeffnc,

Ok, so you're saying when you push KK, Aces will call. Yes, if someone is holding AA, they will call anything you do whether you minraise, potraise, limp, call, push, limp-reraise, check-raise, steal, resteal, stop and go, go and go, I can't think of anymore. You should probably being doing the same with KK.

I'm not that great of a player, but I've come to understand the bad luck of poker and the variance that it can have.

I don't understand why you are getting so defensive. You tell me to stop replying poker forums, yet you can't keep your cool when you get some feedback.

Maybe more players are getting better? After all, the poker boom has been around long enough that the more serious players are getting "better," while the bad players are getting "better" also.

My sample size is small. I definitely don't play the volume of poker that the majority of 2+2 plays, but that is because I have become very discouraged from poker that I feel like I am just throwing away money. Only recently have I really decided to get to work and learn this game. However, it doesn't take Dick Tracey to realize that KK running into AA is just variance. Maybe you need to reevaluate your game. It's like an investing/trading strategy. When more and more people do it, it becomes ineffective. Maybe I'm wrong there, but you get the idea.

jeffnc · #10 03-06-2007, 05:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You are going to make a lot of friends on the interweb.

[/ QUOTE ]

What can I say Wilco? I recognize a smart ass answer when I see one. In my opinion my question was perfectly valid. Why would someone rather waste time with a flame if they have no interest in pursuing the topic? Your opinion is noted, but frankly I'm not sure why you bothered if you have no interest in the actual topic at hand either. I'm well aware of how to make friends. I didn't ask about the value of moving all in with kings so I could find new friends. But if someone wants to get smart ass with me, I'll play along. I have a feeling you would too.