High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews

[M2d]

are you talking >75 if you order every course? my favorite bay area restaurants (oliveto's, postrio, piperade, etc) are easily under this if i eat normally (a salad or appetizer, main meal dessert), but might squeek by over the line if I get all courses. maybe i'm just a slob, but as far as service, food quality and, server knowledge, selection, and innovation, i can't find much wrong with these places.
otoh, the handfull of >75 restaurants i've been to (french laundry, danko, etc) have had this as well, but also a certain something extra. maybe a closer attention to detail in the presentation, or a little more experimentation in using offbeat local ingredients in non-traditional manners.

since i had my son, though, i've been more into the double secret hole in the wall places.

[citanul]

Arfinn,

I think maybe there was a language barrier or something prior to your first post in this thread. I can't find a list of all that many places at all in the world that are close to $500 per diner, just for food. The premise was 1 person, just the food, no alcohol/drinks. If you can give me a few examples of these places you've had $500 meals, I'll stand corrected, but I think we're talking about the same places, honestly.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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Arfinn,

I think maybe there was a language barrier or something prior to your first post in this thread. I can't find a list of all that many places at all in the world that are close to $500 per diner, just for food. The premise was 1 person, just the food, no alcohol/drinks. If you can give me a few examples of these places you've had $500 meals, I'll stand corrected, but I think we're talking about the same places, honestly.

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In the $500 I included wine and drinks, reread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[NajdorfDefense]

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i honestly could not think of a place to go that would be this expensive - or an occasion. why do you and ffk go to places this expensive? is the food that much better?

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Yes, the food is better, and to get that Nirvana-moment where everything with the company, locale, food, wine is perfect, the 5 seconds where you realize how lucky you are to be living and how wonderful life at its best is.

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[Arnfinn Madsen]

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Yes, the food is better

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In general, of course. But the two best food experiences, I have ever had was cheap. One is in fast food-joint in Oslo where it works a Japanese sushi chef who sometimes shows you that you should try this (probably when he has found that one special fish), he doesn't speak anything else than yes and no [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] and when he does it is just fantastic, no sushi restaurant I have ever been to beats that.

Other one is with my friend being drunk in Poland at 4am, walking through a forest a bit hungry and out of nowhere comes some guy and tells us that his wife is a great cook, so we go to some tent and eat different dishes until early morning, of some just 2-3 spoons to have space for everything and it was all fabolous, I still sometimes think it must have been a dream, too absurd to be true [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[El Diablo]

All,

All this discussion is great, but let's get some more reviews here!

So, general thoughts first.

The high-end restaurants that Cit is talking about are places that when it's all said and done are gonna be more like $125+/person restaurants, and often $150+ (of course wine can easily take this far higher). In the US, chef's tasting menus at high-end restaurants are generally $80-120. That's the kind of restaurant we're talking about in this thread.

So what do I want/expect:

Food: Main thing I want is to think that nothing put in front of me is so-so. Now, I might not like a certain taste, that is fine. But if they are serving chicken, I never want to be like, well OK that is just like the roasted chicken at that neighborhood rotisserie place.

Service: AM summed it up pretty well. I want the waiter to be attentive, but not intrusive. Let us control what's going on in the dinner. He should provide info, but not be pushy or pretentious. It's all about taking cues from us. Being knowledgeable about what to recommend based on asking us a few questions is huge. At a place that is not a fixed menu, being able to suggest the appropriate amount of food to order is very important.

Ambience: I don't want tables to be too close together. I don't want it to be too loud. I want all the little things to be right.

As for the styles cit described, I am a fan of both styles. The "best of class" restaurants where they do some style that exists at a lower price point, just really really well (places like Delmonico's or Craftsteak for steaks, Nobu for sushi, for example) or places that are more creative and the chef is going to town with a tasting menu highlighting all sorts of differnet foods/techniques. Some places fall sort of in the middle with a few courses that you mix and match between. I like them all.

Here are a few of the ones I've been to relatively recently that I'll review in this thread if nobody beats me to them.

Nobu (Vegas/NYC/London, sushi)
Dining Room at Ritz Carlton (SF, tasting menu)
Gary Danko (SF, hybrid)
Quince (SF, hybrid)
Delmonico's (Vegas, steak)
Craftsteak (NYC, steak)
Michael Mina (SF, tasting menu)

Of these, I was very impressed and highly recommend the first four. Craftsteak was very good, but only the steak was really noteworthy. The sides and starters were all very good, but did not blow us away like I expect at a high-end place. Michael Mina was a disappointment and the only one that I would not recommend.

[offTopic]

Masked Man,

I'm interested in hearing what you and others have to say about Gary Danko...it's high up on the list of places we plan on going to soon.

[7ontheline]

Citanul,

What did you like in Chicago? (I think we've had this conversation before in another thread, though maybe not so restricted to high-end stuff.)

I enjoyed Charlie Trotter's, although it was so hyped that when I went maybe I it couldn't quite meet expectations. That said, it was an excellent meal. I preferred Tru though. The restaurant itself seems more open and bright (Trotter's small house seems almost oppressive) and the food was better tasting. Trotter's food was a little more eclectic and lighter, Tru's a little more rich. The candy cart at the end of Tru's meal was fun. Service was excellent at both. One cool thing was that Trotter's gives you a tour of the kitchen/restaurant if you ask. Man, the kitchen is small considering how many people are cooking their butts off back there.

Arun's (high end Thai, for those not familiar) was very good but maybe not quite as transcendant as I would expect for the price. Maybe that's my bias though - being Asian, I like the down-home authentic type of Asian cooking, and Arun's is super-fancy royal Thai cuisine. Service not quite as polished as Trotter's/Tru.

I was not particularly impressed with Spiaggia - I felt that it was overpriced. The Italian food was not SO excellent that I felt it was worth the extra money over a nice (though inferior, of course) Italian place. Have you been to Alinea? Or Moto? (Since we're discussing experimental places)

[El Diablo]

The Dining Room at the Ritz Carlton

Went here recently. The chef is Ron Siegel. For high-end restaurant fans, here's his resume: cook at Aqua, cook at Daniel, sous-chef at French Laundry, chef Charles Nob Hill, chef Masa's. He also beat Sakai in the Japanese version of Iron Chef.

They have a few different options for menus ranging from three to nine courses. Menu

We went with the salt and pepper tasting menu, where each course features a differnet type of salt and pepper used for seasoning.

You are seated and they offer you a cocktail or champagne before dinner, they have a nice chilled cart of champagnes to select from.

The decor is a tad stuffy, as this is an older Ritz that has not gotten the new-school hip remodel that some of the newer Ritz's have. It's not bad, just a little dated feeling. Also, because it is in a Ritz, the customers skew towards the old side, adding to a bit of the stuffy feeling. These are pretty minor issues, though. The chairs are nice and comfortable, the lighting is at a good level, the room is not noisy, and the tables are not too close.

Then about 4 of 5 amuse bouches (tiny pre-meal bites to whet your palate) are brought out one after another, they just kept coming. There was some soup, some caviar, a savory mousse, a couple others. One preparation that just blew me away was a smoked dish that was on top of a little plastic covered smoke-filled bowl. Tapping on the plastic released smoke, creating an incredibly seasoned bite.

Around this time the sommelier came by to suggest some wines we might like.

The courses were all very good. A couple of raw fish, foie gras, some lobster, duck breast, some cooked fish, steak, etc. In general, you get this type of mix, but the specific dishes are always changing. The lobster and pork belly combo was a real highlight, but everything was just delicious. The only minor complaint was that occassionally the pacing would be slightly off between courses, I am sure this is because of trying to keep multiple tables with the same tasting menu on the same schedule. This was never an issue of any significance, just could have been slightly more even.

The amount of food is very filling. There were substantial portions of everything. My friend could not finish her delicious steak course, so I had to help her out. Yum.

Sometimes the dishes just used the salt and pepper as flavor elements, but in a couple they really highlightest a special salt or pepper as a central element. Very cool theme.

After dinner had some espresso. Even though you are stuffed at this point, they bring by a tray with all sorts of little petit fours, mini cookies and cakes and tarts and cheesecakes and chocolates. You just point and pick whatever you want from there.

Dinner concludes and they give everyone a tiny little box with a couple of caramels in it as a little memento of your trip.

The whole dinner is 2.5 to 3 hours and you leave there feeling like it was an experience, not just a meal.

[El Diablo]

oT,

Gary Danko (http://www.garydanko.com/) is $61/77/92 for 3/4/5 course tasting menu.

The last time I went there we sat at the bar and had the four course menu. If you get there early you can sit down at the bar and have the full menu, nice to know for those of us who aren't great at reserving in advance (Danko you generally need to reserve at least a couple of weeks in advance).

I think I got:

Seared Foie Gras w/ Caramelized Red Onions and Fuji Apples

Seared Sea Scallops (a differnet preparation than what is on the current website menu)

Cheese Course - highly recommend doing this at Danko. You each get to select three cheeses (this used to be four, weak) from an incredible selection of cheeses.

Dessert - I think for dessert we got the trio of creme brulee and either the chocolate-raspberry tart or chocolate souffle.

All the desserts I've had there are great. Actually, just about everything I've had there is amazing. I highly, highly recommend Gary Danko.

It is definitely high-end, very nice dining room, ambience, etc. However, it is not stuffy at all. More of a California-style high-end ambience, which is a little more modern feel than someplace like the Ritz or a traditional high-end French place.