need help with strategy against bad players

[alphatmw]

say you are in a 6 handed 0.05/0.1 NL game with friends. these players are a combination of loose passive beginners and good but predictable players. the LPs are level 0 thinkers, the good players are level 1 thinkers and thus it is very easy to put them on a hand.

CO limps, you are on the button with T9s. do you call, min raise, or standard raise? what about T9o?

raises are likely to be called but i'm not sure if i want to build the pot against players with little fold equity. on the other hand, i have position. just not sure which play is best in this situation.

[Gonso]

I like anything but a raise here. If stacks were deep I'd favor calling with either, but folding the T9o is fine (I'm a little tighter around loose beginners). I'd like getting in cheap w/ marginal hands with position against these guys, no point in raising with those hands when there's no much fold equity.

Since you're presumably the best player post-flop and have position, I'd do most of my work on the flop.

Although, you could take advantage of an opportunity to advertise here to set up a bigger pot for when you get a big hand later on.

But generally, against weaker players with a tendency to call I like betting/raising legit hands for value, and kind of Negreanu-esque limp-in/smallball thing with marginal hands. Obviously I'm looking to play the level 0 guys.

[alphatmw]

you'd fold T9o on the button with position against people you know you can outplay? esp with passive, predictable players?

[AKQJ10]

T9 isn't that great a hand.

That said, it is a little better than nothing, and the key here is that we can outplay our opponents so we're looking for excuses to take extra flops with position. So I'd probably limp it somewhat often. But realize that you're going to hit a lot of flops like QT3 double-suited where it's not exactly obvious where you stand, especially if your opponents are rather maniacal.

I agree that there's little value to raising T9s here except to balance, too.

[alphatmw]

ok thanks. i think early on in learning poker, i got too much of that "be aggressive, apply pressure, blah blah blah" mentality in my head and i default to it too often. "raise or fold, raise or fold".

[Abbaddabba]

If you raised nothing but QQ+ against these people, you wouldnt be missing out on much.

[SplawnDarts]

[ QUOTE ]
I like anything but a raise here. If stacks were deep I'd favor calling with either, but folding the T9o is fine (I'm a little tighter around loose beginners). I'd like getting in cheap w/ marginal hands with position against these guys, no point in raising with those hands when there's no much fold equity.

Since you're presumably the best player post-flop and have position, I'd do most of my work on the flop.

Although, you could take advantage of an opportunity to advertise here to set up a bigger pot for when you get a big hand later on.

But generally, against weaker players with a tendency to call I like betting/raising legit hands for value, and kind of Negreanu-esque limp-in/smallball thing with marginal hands. Obviously I'm looking to play the level 0 guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like grade A advice. If you're playing implied odds (which is probably the case, since it's highly unlikely T9 is best right now) you should make your implied odds as good as possible. That means a small preflop investment, and that means call.

[SplawnDarts]

[ QUOTE ]
ok thanks. i think early on in learning poker, i got too much of that "be aggressive, apply pressure, blah blah blah" mentality in my head and i default to it too often. "raise or fold, raise or fold".

[/ QUOTE ]

That's probably accurate. There's a fairly wide range of scenarios where the call is the right play. Big implied odds preflop with a suited connector is one of them. The trick is distinguishing between the savy +EV places to call, and the donkish ones.

[PantsOnFire]

Preflop - I would only raise or reraise with my best hands. Forget about stealing, restealing, mixing up your play, etc. There is no point. I would also call a lot with hands that have potential like suited connectors, pocket pairs, bit paint cards, etc. I would even call modest raises. This is where your postflop play would come in handy, to get out of situations when you miss.

Value betting - This is a game where slowplaying is not a good idea, so just value bet your good hands. This is the best play against passive players.

Bluffing - Bluff a lot less in this game. Against the level 1 players, you can start recognizing their betting and folding patterns and start to steal pots where you can represent a good hand and read that they have nothing or little. Forget about bluffing the level 0 players.

Implied odds - This is a good game for implied odds. Guys with top pair are going to go all the way with it. This is why getting into a lot of flops with speculative hands is good. As well, you can chase draws against the odds if you can correctly determine that you opponent has something and will pay you off when you hit.

Betting - You must size your bets correctly to give the wrong odds and allow your opponents to make mistakes. As well, when they are underbetting the pot you can take advantage and come along hoping to catch something. When you have something like second pair, backdoor draws, overcards, etc. then by all means call min bets into bigger pots, the odds are there for you.

Player Observation - The level 0 players especially should be very easy to read after a while. Figure out what they do when the have a hand or have nothing and you will almost be able to see their cards.

Deceptiveness - Your opponents are unlikely to be trying to read you so there is no reason to mix up your play or make suboptimal plays to set something up later.

Pot Control - Play a lot in position so you can control the pot. Keep pots small when you are drawing and build pots big when you have the goods.

[Kimbell175113]

Min-raise is fine, though, if the stacks are deep. There's something about this in NLHTAP, doubling the stakes with a nice situation, good implied odds, etc.

But that's all it is, doubling the stakes. It's not a decision to play the whole hand aggro, and usually a continuation bet will be wrong if you miss.