AllIn preflop post

[vmacosta]

In this post in highstakes:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...;gonew=1#UNREAD

There is an agro player raising the button and hero has A7o in BB. Allin, a well-respected high limit reg claims he would DEF not 3-bet Ao nand many other aces:

"Unimproved postflop, with A7o and the lead, you'll rarely be getting better hands to fold or worse hands to call (incorrectly), meaning that if you reraise preflop it's got to be for value. Your equity with A7o vs a button opening range is around 52-53%, which generally isn't a big enough edge to push for value.


You know how when you're on the turn/river you need well above 50% equity to raise purely for value (67% when they're always reraising correctly and never folding)? The same applies preflop, in that you need well above 50% to reraise for value because you re-open the betting (the fact that he/she may delay reraising better hands by opting not to cap is meaningless if we're going to autobet the flop anyway).


So basically I'm saying the nature of A7o is that reraising = value raise, not a bluff, and that A7o isn't strong enough to value raise.


Of course if you had QJs, hand with similar equity vs a button opening range, the benefit of taking the lead is that you'll frequently bluff out better hands postflop.


In answer to which Ax I'd 3-bet, I'd only do it if I felt that the value was there - my test is whether I'd be able to correctly value bet the river unimproved much. So probably AQ/AJ (which are around 60% equity in this spot), but if the opponent doesn't check behind the flop much, then I'll tend to call these hands preflop anyway. "

What do you guys think? Particularly the stuff about opening the door to a cap...

[Hobbs.]

It makes a lot of sense to me. I will say though that a couple of reasons for 3-betting some aces are for metagame game and easy of play postflop (equity realization). As far as metagame goes (only really important against people we play with often) we would much prefer to have a 'don't [censored] with my blind' image that might cut down on your opponents stealing range in the future. As far as ease of play goes postflop, against somebody with a fairly wide opening range it becomes somewhat hard to play Ax/Kx UIed OOP. Very often when we take the initiative away we have an easier time winning the smaller pots when we are ahead.

[Oink]

Sorry for idiot reply, but statandard?

Pretty good post tho. I agree with about everything in it. I always get a good laugh when people 3-bet me with A2o out of the BB

EDIT: ATo/A9o is usually around where I 3-bet

[sethypooh21]

Yeah, i definitely need ATo/A8s here to 3 bomb.

[Oink]

1 thing to note IMO

Yeah you are not folding a lot of better hands postflop when you 3-ball. But compared to just calling you might fold worse hands that would make you fold had you not 3-bet PF.

Say you just call and flop comes KT3fd with no bdfd for you. I would be folding here and giving up about 35-40% eq.

Now an argument can of course be made for me to not fold but I dunno about that.

In any case. 3-betting might not buy us a lot of implied FE but it will reduce our reverse implied FE as hero will now be the one to take down the pot on flops where he would have c/f'ed.

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]


Say you just call and flop comes KT3fd with no bdfd for you. I would be folding here and giving up about 35-40% eq.

Now an argument can of course be made for me to not fold but I dunno about that.


[/ QUOTE ]

so here's my main problem. Frankly, on that KTxr flop, I think folding A7o is bad. AllIn agrees, I think, but many good players fold there (see that thread for examples). I think giving up 35+% equity getting 5:1 is dumb. But I guess I'm just as uncomfortable in that spot as other ppl, which is why I tend to 3-bet stuff like A8o pf. I know it sounds silly to make a -ev play in order to avoid a different -ev play. But I just don't get why ppl are so quick to dump all that equity getting 5:1.

sorry for the ramble, plz keep up with good responses--I am def in need of improvement here.

[thrasher789]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, i definitely need ATo/A8s here to 3 bomb.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed, that's a pretty good cutoff to 3 bet stealers imo

[FlopYouDead]

If I call a raise pf and c/f the flop I feel like an idiot. I called just to flop an ace or some horrid undercard flop?

If I call pf and c/c flop I feel like an idiot whether I then c/f turn or river or call down and show ace rag. If he shows a K I feel dumb and if he shows 44 I feel dumb.

It just doesn't seem like I'm giving my hand a chance. I win a minimal pot when I'm good or lose a substantial pot if I look him up. I'm also outdrawn a lot giving free cards to worse hands.

If I call pf it's not pot odds it's because I think my hand is good. If it isn't the 3 outer is not worth it. So I raise pf. In general I don't believe the cheap streets are the place to be saving bets.