Crazy Question about Omnipotence

mickeyg13 · #1 11-13-2007, 04:45 AM

For the sake of argument, suppose that there is a God that created the universe and that He is omnipotent (as many of His followers believe He is). Presumably then in creating the universe, He decided upon the various scientific laws that appear to govern physical interactions within the universe (picking all of the equations and setting values for all the constants, etc). Did He also write the rules of logic? That sounds like a crazy question, but please hear me out. If He did not write the rules of logic, then it seems He would be bound by them, making Him not omnipotent. It seems many would use such an argument to conclude that a truly omnipotent God must not exist.

Before you make that conclusion, I'm wondering about the alternative. If He really were truly omnipotent, it would seem that He would not be bound by any laws (unless He wanted to be), so as the "inventor" of logic, He would be free to break the rules at will. That would seem to have all sorts of crazy implications. For example, all those weird questions about immovable objects and four-sided triangles could actually be solved in the affirmative if this truly omnipotent God is allowed to rewrite logic as He sees fit. I think if nothing else it's something interesting to think about.

Please don't get the wrong idea about me by that post. I'm not someone that hates logic and is trying to throw it out the window or something. Logic happens to be important to me and my area of study. Frankly I'm not sure how even I feel about the scenario, but I feel like it deserves at least some thought. People see a logical contradiction in the notion of omnipotence, but maybe omnipotence can counteract that problem somehow.

yukoncpa · #2 11-13-2007, 04:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
For the sake of argument, suppose that there is a God that created the universe and that He is omnipotent (as many of His followers believe He is). Presumably then in creating the universe, He decided upon the various scientific laws that appear to govern physical interactions within the universe (picking all of the equations and setting values for all the constants, etc). Did He also write the rules of logic? That sounds like a crazy question, but please hear me out. If He did not write the rules of logic, then it seems He would be bound by them, making Him not omnipotent. It seems many would use such an argument to conclude that a truly omnipotent God must not exist.

Before you make that conclusion, I'm wondering about the alternative. If He really were truly omnipotent, it would seem that He would not be bound by any laws (unless He wanted to be), so as the "inventor" of logic, He would be free to break the rules at will. That would seem to have all sorts of crazy implications. For example, all those weird questions about immovable objects and four-sided triangles could actually be solved in the affirmative if this truly omnipotent God is allowed to rewrite logic as He sees fit. I think if nothing else it's something interesting to think about.

Please don't get the wrong idea about me by that post. I'm not someone that hates logic and is trying to throw it out the window or something. Logic happens to be important to me and my area of study. Frankly I'm not sure how even I feel about the scenario, but I feel like it deserves at least some thought. People see a logical contradiction in the notion of omnipotence, but maybe omnipotence can counteract that problem somehow.

[/ QUOTE ] Well obviously God isn't omnipotent. Show me in the bible where this word is used.

mickeyg13 · #3 11-13-2007, 04:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For the sake of argument, suppose that there is a God that created the universe and that He is omnipotent (as many of His followers believe He is). Presumably then in creating the universe, He decided upon the various scientific laws that appear to govern physical interactions within the universe (picking all of the equations and setting values for all the constants, etc). Did He also write the rules of logic? That sounds like a crazy question, but please hear me out. If He did not write the rules of logic, then it seems He would be bound by them, making Him not omnipotent. It seems many would use such an argument to conclude that a truly omnipotent God must not exist.

Before you make that conclusion, I'm wondering about the alternative. If He really were truly omnipotent, it would seem that He would not be bound by any laws (unless He wanted to be), so as the "inventor" of logic, He would be free to break the rules at will. That would seem to have all sorts of crazy implications. For example, all those weird questions about immovable objects and four-sided triangles could actually be solved in the affirmative if this truly omnipotent God is allowed to rewrite logic as He sees fit. I think if nothing else it's something interesting to think about.

Please don't get the wrong idea about me by that post. I'm not someone that hates logic and is trying to throw it out the window or something. Logic happens to be important to me and my area of study. Frankly I'm not sure how even I feel about the scenario, but I feel like it deserves at least some thought. People see a logical contradiction in the notion of omnipotence, but maybe omnipotence can counteract that problem somehow.

[/ QUOTE ] Well obviously God isn't omnipotent. Show me in the bible where this word is used.

[/ QUOTE ]

My post has nothing to do with the Bible. If you like, pretend that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is omnipotent and created the universe. Now ask yourselves those questions about omnipotence and the FSM.

yukoncpa · #4 11-13-2007, 04:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My post has nothing to do with the Bible. If you like, pretend that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is omnipotent and created the universe. Now ask yourselves those questions about omnipotence and the FSM.

[/ QUOTE ] duh. obviously. Whether I invoke the bible or not, makes no difference. God can't be omnipotent. Your analysis is correct. I wasn't disputing you.

mickeyg13 · #5 11-13-2007, 04:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well obviously God isn't omnipotent. Show me in the bible where this word is used.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just for fun though, I thought I'd point out Revelations 19:6 according to the King James version:
"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."

That's not even the version of the Bible I use, but I just wanted to mention that.

yukoncpa · #6 11-13-2007, 05:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Just for fun though, I thought I'd point out Revelations 19:6 according to the King James version:
"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."

That's not even the version of the Bible I use, but I just wanted to mention that.

[/ QUOTE ] You pwned me there. I didn't realize that that word was even mentioned in the Bible. Sorry. It's been a while since I read it.

pokervintage · #7 11-13-2007, 05:00 AM

Logic as with math is independent of an omnipotent power. Both have laws that are either true (universally) or false (universally). Knowing this and how to optimally employ each are some of the reasons for God's omnipotence. I guess.

pokervintage

vhawk01 · #8 11-13-2007, 05:02 AM

Arent any discussions about God's omnipotence kind of silly and meaningless since none of us has the slightest clue wtf omnipotent means?

yukoncpa · #9 11-13-2007, 05:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Arent any discussions about God's omnipotence kind of silly and meaningless since none of us has the slightest clue wtf omnipotent means?

[/ QUOTE ] I would certainly agree with your statement. Can God make 2 plus 2 equal 5? What exactly does omnipotence mean? Can he alter the law of physics or not? I'm not sure anyone knows the definition as used in the OP's biblical reference, as the bible didn't elaborate.

mickeyg13 · #10 11-13-2007, 05:08 AM

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Arent any discussions about God's omnipotence kind of silly and meaningless since none of us has the slightest clue wtf omnipotent means?

[/ QUOTE ]

What does their silliness and/or meaninglessness have to do with whether or not they should be discussed? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I tried to be explicit that I meant a true omnipotence, I suppose essentially meaning that "a true omnipotent figure can do X" for all values of X, even if this leads to a contradiction. There are of course other variations, but for this thread I meant truly no limitations on power. It could be the case that there is an omnipotent creator that can do all things that are not logical contradictions, but I wasn't considering that here.