Can a Dealer Coach a Player During a Hand?

BigBluffer · #1 09-09-2007, 02:55 PM

2 players at the river. Board is J-J-4-4-K. Both players check. Player in seat 9 tables 3-3. Player in seat 6 moves his cards forward face down toward the dealer but nowhere near any other cards. Dealer says "Don't you want to turn your cards up." Player shakes his head no. Dealer says "Turn your cards up. You may have the winner." Player in seat 7 (out of the hand) says "Turn your cards up." Finally he turns over A-x, raking in the pot.

Was the dealer out of line here? I believe he was. I realize that cards read themselves, but if this noob doesn't know enough to turn over his winning hand, then he deserves what he gets. And I definitely think no dealer has any place telling a player how to play his hand.

RR · #2 09-09-2007, 03:05 PM

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2 players at the river. Board is J-J-4-4-K. Both players check. Player in seat 9 tables 3-3. Player in seat 6 moves his cards forward face down toward the dealer but nowhere near any other cards. Dealer says "Don't you want to turn your cards up." Player shakes his head no. Dealer says "Turn your cards up. You may have the winner." Player in seat 7 (out of the hand) says "Turn your cards up." Finally he turns over A-x, raking in the pot.

Was the dealer out of line here? I believe he was. I realize that cards read themselves, but if this noob doesn't know enough to turn over his winning hand, then he deserves what he gets. And I definitely think no dealer has any place telling a player how to play his hand.

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The dealer needs to not point out that he needs to turn up his hand. Often a player will anyway.

*TT* · #3 09-09-2007, 03:14 PM

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2 players at the river. Board is J-J-4-4-K. Both players check. Player in seat 9 tables 3-3. Player in seat 6 moves his cards forward face down toward the dealer but nowhere near any other cards. Dealer says "Don't you want to turn your cards up." Player shakes his head no. Dealer says "Turn your cards up. You may have the winner." Player in seat 7 (out of the hand) says "Turn your cards up." Finally he turns over A-x, raking in the pot.

Was the dealer out of line here? I believe he was. I realize that cards read themselves, but if this noob doesn't know enough to turn over his winning hand, then he deserves what he gets. And I definitely think no dealer has any place telling a player how to play his hand.

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The dealer needs to not point out that he needs to turn up his hand. Often a player will anyway.

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RR - If this was a typical low limit game with a new player then I wouldn't be bothered by the dealer's suggestion because this is generally good for the game - except that this is a double paired board and it happened after the other player turned over 33 which makes the timing suspect. Would you instead expect the dealer to announce the first players hand as "Jacks over Fours"?

RR · #4 09-09-2007, 03:36 PM

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Would you instead expect the dealer to announce the first players hand as "Jacks over Fours"?

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Yes. I would be ok with him reading it as Jacks and fours with a king kicker and pushing up the entire board if this is a room where they push up board cards. You really want the new player to turn up his hand, but the dealer should not violate one player to a hand.

pfapfap · #5 09-09-2007, 03:58 PM

I'll muck it. I won't prolong it, but I won't insta-muck either. I will, however, clearly announce the winning hand and push the entire board up. At lower levels I'll be a bit slower to muck, but I still don't think I'd ever say anything because someone would get upset and I don't feel a need to irritate my supervisors.

I happen to disagree with this. I think at showdown all hands should play. I don't like to win because of a trick. During the hand, I want you to misread your hand. At showdown, let's just see who wins.

TomTom · #6 09-09-2007, 04:39 PM

Seems the dealer saw this as a chop pot 90% of the time, and the rest of the time seat 6 has a A or K or a pair 55+…but most of the time it’s a chop.

So in the spirit of a fair game he got seat 6 to show his cards for his rightful portion of the pot. There was no play left to help with (so no multi-players to a hand), the hand was over.

Just let the cards speak.

Nothing else to see here. Move along.

youtalkfunny · #7 09-09-2007, 04:55 PM

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There was no play left to help with (so no multi-players to a hand), the hand was over.

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I disagree. Reading your hand, and deciding whether to show it down or muck it, IS a decision the player must make. He should get no aid in making this decision.

*TT* · #8 09-09-2007, 05:12 PM

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There was no play left to help with (so no multi-players to a hand), the hand was over.

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I disagree. Reading your hand, and deciding whether to show it down or muck it, IS a decision the player must make. He should get no aid in making this decision.

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"You may have the winner" is providing unnecessary aid. "are you sure you don't want to turn your cards up sir?" in my opinion would not cross the one player to a hand boundary. Other opinions?

AceMason · #9 09-09-2007, 05:23 PM

Other day I'm at Caesar's 5/10 nl in Vegas. Two guys get all in for ~2k pot. One guy flips 88 on 9875 turn, other guy keeps his cards to himself. River is a 6 and the other guy mucks his hand while the 88 says push me the pot... the dealer then says to the guy who threw his hand away but didn't hit the deck, "there is a straight on the board" so the guy flips his hand over which is TT.... showing a higher straight. Ducy this is such a dumbass thing to do for a dealer?

BigBluffer · #10 09-09-2007, 05:56 PM

Good input so far. Thanks for all the comments.

Part 2 of the story: this is a $2 straight limit hold'em game ($2 max bet on all rounds). Pot was around $30-40. After the pot was pushed to Player 6 a discussion ensued. For a change, I was silent. People were saying Player 9 should have gotten the pot cause player 6 folded. I guess player 6 felt guilty or something because he shoved about half the pot to Player 9. I had everything I could do to keep silent, but I bit my tongue. I didn't want to drive these players away.

This hand could be a textbook example of all the things that can be done wrong in a hand. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]