Is This Cheating?

[HuskerFan85]

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ill stick a finger in my nose and that means i have aces.

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lol.

[slingshot_fl]

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cheating is doing something knowingly to give you or your partner an unfair edge, such as stacking the deck, being in cahoots with people at the table giving signals and cues, using card markers and dyes, etc...

I associate most cheating to be used by partners. its very hard to do much cheating anymore, but i have seen pot jamming, where two players raise eachother when a helpless victim is between them getting sucked in.

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I couldn't agree more, but none of these examples represent a moral dilemna. All of these things - collusion, marking the deck, sorting the deck - are violations of the rules. It's the violation of a posted rule that makes it cheating. They can get you banned, and can even get you convicted and put in jail.

I am not saying there is no morality outside of rules. I am saying that poker is a game, which means it is a collection of rules. Just has collusion has been banned by being codified into a rule, at some future time PT and PAHUD might be banned from online play, or wearing reflective sunglasses at the table might be banned, or maybe anyone who ever took game theory in college will be banned (all of these are advantages), but until then they aren't rules, and in my opinion they aren't cheating.

[slingshot_fl]

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In response to the above post, have you even read casino rules?


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I am not sure if you meant even or ever. I have read them. In many card rooms they are posted, and if not they are available at the brush stand. Knowing the rules has saved me the pot more than once when someone did something stupid at the table. I don't know how to become accomplished at a game without bothering to read the rules for that game. In any event, I have gotten benefit from reading them.

[HuskerFan85]

in some places, sunglasses already have been banned from play. I think its a stupid thing when i see kids walk into the casino with pitchblack full wraparounds heading for the smallstakes limit games.I think the WPT has banned them, too.

Everyone is focused on how its cheating if you see someones cards in their glasses, but what about it being cheating to wear them. Does it not give an unfair edge to the wearer, because no one can see his eyes but he can see others?

[illuminati]

wtf no. Even more so with the pulse quickening.

[KipBond]

I'm sure hoping that we are seeing a vocal minority here. I know that if I ever find out that someone I am playing with is seeing cards and not speaking up, I will speak up for them, and never play with them again.

Seeing others' hole cards without letting the other players know is cheating. Second perhaps only to stealing their chips when they aren't looking. Is there a rule for that: "no player shall remove another players chips when they aren't looking"? Never heard of that rule. Must not be cheating.

[Albert Moulton]

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I can't believe there are so many people who don't think this is cheating. The level or moral development is so low amongst the people posting on this forum that it makes me glad to be playing against such--for lack of a better word--stupid people, but at the same time it worries me. Ask yourself: could these actions be willed to everyone at the table? (i.e. what if everyone at the table saw everyone's cards through his/her glasses?) Then it wouldn't be poker.

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I sat next to a guy last week who would hold his hole cards in such a way that I could see them without trying. After the first incident, I said, "You should watch how you hold your cards because I can see them." He said, "Oh, thanks." At that point, he continued to flash them in such a way that both me and the guy next to me could often see them without trying. I no longer felt compelled to tell him any more. And while I never took advantage of that information in that game, I don't think I would have had a problem using it if he continued to flash his cards despite my warning. It almost cost him in a hand. He looked at his cards without flashing them, laughed, called, and said, "Did you see what I had last hand?" I said, "Jack nine of diamonds." He laughed again. The flop came all diamonds. Three guys ended up all in on the flop. He showed "Jack nine of diamonds" again for the win. If I'd been in the hand, or someone in the hand was listening to us, he would have given a big hint as to what his hand might have been.

As for the glasses, I think that is a slightly different case. In that case, the guy is actively trying to hide his own facial features to prevent tells by wearing the glasses in the first place. Having that tactic backfire on him by giving off the ultimate tell - the cards themselves, is his own fault for trying to hide his features in the first place. Wearing glasses inside is pretty silly, IMO, and if people can see their cards in the reflection, then its nobody's fault but their own. I certainly would never say, "Sir, do you realize that your hands shake when you have the nuts, but your vein pulses when you bluff?" I think the reflection is the same as the hands and the vein. It is an involuntary physical tell that is fair game for exploitation by opponents at the poker table.

So, the inadvertent card flashing is something I warn someone about, mostly so no one can accuse me of trying to shoot angles. But all other physical tells, including the reflection in the glasses, are fair game.

Cheating would be marking the cards and wearing glasses to be the only one to see the marks. Or hiding an ace up my sleeve. Or purposely shooting angles on an unsuspecting (and probably old or novice) player next to you. Or collaborating with others at the table. etc.

[Albert Moulton]

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I'm sure hoping that we are seeing a vocal minority here. I know that if I ever find out that someone I am playing with is seeing cards and not speaking up, I will speak up for them, and never play with them again.

Seeing others' hole cards without letting the other players know is cheating. Second perhaps only to stealing their chips when they aren't looking. Is there a rule for that: "no player shall remove another players chips when they aren't looking"? Never heard of that rule. Must not be cheating.

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The player does not need to wear glasses. He chooses to wear glasses.

If he gives off a physical tell as a result, how is that different than any other physical tell.

If you found that a guy beads sweat on the knuckle of his thumb every time he bluffs all-in, but is bone dry with the nuts, then you would never tell him, would you? But that tell is just as reliable as seeing his cards.

[Albert Moulton]

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If a casino does consider it cheating, then they should punish the guy who is wearing the glasses and not the players who are looking into the reflection...

In response to the above post, have you even read casino rules?

What if instead of the man's glasses you were seeing his cards off the reflection off a gold bar stool or something shiny?

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In the case of the gold bar stool, I'd warn him once and tell the floorman. This is something outside of his control, and I'd give him a single heads up. After that, if he doesn't heed the advice, then I'd use the information.

[KipBond]

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I'm sure hoping that we are seeing a vocal minority here. I know that if I ever find out that someone I am playing with is seeing cards and not speaking up, I will speak up for them, and never play with them again.

Seeing others' hole cards without letting the other players know is cheating. Second perhaps only to stealing their chips when they aren't looking. Is there a rule for that: "no player shall remove another players chips when they aren't looking"? Never heard of that rule. Must not be cheating.

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The player does not need to wear glasses. He chooses to wear glasses.

If he gives off a physical tell as a result, how is that different than any other physical tell.

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It's not fair to the other players in the hand.

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If you found that a guy beads sweat on the knuckle of his thumb every time he bluffs all-in, but is bone dry with the nuts, then you would never tell him, would you? But that tell is just as reliable as seeing his cards.

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No it's not. Physical tells are never 100% accurate -- not even close. And they can be faked. Flashing cards cannot be faked. You have certain information that undermines the entire game.