Folding the nuts???????

nekpinder · #1 09-21-2007, 05:39 PM

I really don't have many redraw outs and I am certainly up against at least one 9 10. If I am up against two players with 9 10 my redraw outs are down to only two. Is a fold reasonable?

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $4 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($970.45)
Button ($594)
SB ($547.90)
Hero ($621.25)
UTG ($189.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $4, MP raises to $9, 1 fold, SB calls $7, Hero calls $5, UTG calls $5.

Flop: ($36) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets $16, MP raises to $82.2, SB folds, Hero calls $82.20, UTG raises to $180.25, MP raises to $657.15,

About $91 of my stack is in the pot so it is $500+ to make the call. So there is about $900 in the pot by the time it gets back around to me. Is calling the play?

roggles · #2 09-21-2007, 05:58 PM

I'm obviously not nearly as good as you since I only play 50 PL, but I do think this is a fold. If both have 9T you are in really really bad shape and putting in all that money to get back what you have put in. If only one person has 9T, then probably the other guy has at least a set and then you are again getting very bad equity. That neither player has 9T seems unlikely.

RoundTower · #3 09-21-2007, 06:02 PM

reads on both? I think a fold is possible.

Elrazor · #4 09-21-2007, 06:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
reads on both? I think a fold is possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

unless i can crai, i would also lead the flop here for the pot - you define your hand earlier and its cheaper

Rob121 · #5 09-21-2007, 06:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
reads on both? I think a fold is possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

unless i can crai, i would also lead the flop here for the pot - you define your hand earlier and its cheaper

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree by doing this you might even get another 9 10 to lay down. if utg has 9 10 he would only have 16 invested and basically be facing all in when the action came back to him. i could then see myself folding 9 10 if i was utg.

CorvusMonedula · #6 09-21-2007, 07:00 PM

I'd lead at flop too. Now it looks like you're getting freerolled by at least one of them with 9T and diamonds. I think I'm folding.

DonCologne · #7 09-21-2007, 07:50 PM

With leading out you can save more money, if shortie raises and MP reraise. Than it is much more likley MP holds the nuts with some redraws, as it is with this beting sequence.

If you bet, shortie raises and MP calls -> MP has either 9T with no redraw or the nutflushdraw or a set.

If you bet, shortie raises and MP reraises -> Obviously you are geting freerolled -> fold

As played he will isolate the shortie often enough with a naked straight and not much redraw, because with your check and cold call you say to him: "Hey I have a boat or flush draw but not the nut straight."

nekpinder · #8 09-22-2007, 12:31 AM

As for reads I had about 50 hands played with MP and didn't see anything out of line.

[ QUOTE ]
With leading out you can save more money, if shortie raises and MP reraise. Than it is much more likley MP holds the nuts with some redraws, as it is with this beting sequence.

If you bet, shortie raises and MP calls -> MP has either 9T with no redraw or the nutflushdraw or a set.

If you bet, shortie raises and MP reraises -> Obviously you are geting freerolled -> fold

As played he will isolate the shortie often enough with a naked straight and not much redraw, because with your check and cold call you say to him: "Hey I have a boat or flush draw but not the nut straight."

[/ QUOTE ]

If I lead and shorty decides to call and then I face a raise from MP what course of action do we like? It sounds like you guys are saying be the one that shoves it over the top and put MP to a decision.

How is the decision to fold any different if I lead as opposed to as played. It seems to me the other players hands are pretty defined in both situations. I guess I save about $80 by leading and folding to raise, reraise but I don't like the situation I mentioned above at all (I lead, shorty calls, MP pots it). If i played it like that I think I would be inclined to call and see the turn. Is that horrible? Obviously, I want to avoid getting freerolled for 150bbs as much as possible.

Don- when you say naked straight do you think someone might try and isolate a hand like 95? Or are you speaking strictly to a redrawless 9 10?

Elrazor · #9 09-22-2007, 03:18 AM

if MP shoves over the top of my bet and shorties call, i know i am splitting at best. with shortie calling MP is also expecting him to be priced in with some kind of draw and to call, so hes obviously not worried about his hand lacking showdown value. im quite happy to wait for a better spot here in general

jpg7n16 · #10 09-22-2007, 03:22 AM

also, are T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] outs?

just for your consideration