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#1
11-28-2007, 03:13 AM
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Re: Overbetting: When to use it?
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an example of overbetting for value- basically I was pretty sure shortie had a a straight and wasn't folding because he was comitted, and the bigger stack either had a straight or he didn't, but he was likely calling/folding regardless of my bet size. I think I had to raise here because a diamond or board pairing could dampen my action, and any raise is going to be threatening given the re-raise already in front of me, so might as well go for it all. Plus, a push has the bonus of looking slightly absurd. Poker Stars No Limit Holdem Ring game Blinds: $0.25/$0.50 8 players Converter Stack sizes: UTG: $13 UTG+1: $37.50 MP1: $139.35 MP2: $21.30 CO: $23.95 Button: $17.45 SB: $46.20 Hero: $50 Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero checks. Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($2, 4 players) SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks. Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($2, 4 players) SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $1.75</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $3.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 raises to $5.25</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in $49.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 calls all-in $33.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 calls all-in $15.55</font>. Uncalled bets: $12.5 returned to Hero. River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($80.6, 0 player + 3 all-in - Main pot: $64.4, Sidepot 1: $32.4) Results: Final pot: $80.6 [/ QUOTE ] No offense, but this hand is 100% standard and doesn't illustrate the OP's point one bit. Clearly one of them had the J, possibly QJ as well, and the other had like J,x w/ fl redraw and assumed HE was freerolling you. 
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#2
11-28-2007, 04:42 AM
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Re: Overbetting: When to use it?
I said my hand was a bad example, but I didn't mean that you all had to post ones where you overbet in really stupid spots too. Sorry for leading y'all down that road.
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#3
11-28-2007, 05:15 AM
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Re: Overbetting: When to use it?
I agree. Yours was a bad example.
But well done for trying.
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#4
11-28-2007, 05:26 AM
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Re: Overbetting: When to use it?
[ QUOTE ]
I said my hand was a bad example, but I didn't mean that you all had to post ones where you overbet in really stupid spots too. Sorry for leading y'all down that road. [/ QUOTE ] I think people have pretty much covered the entire spectrum, so basically it's never good to overbet the pot apparently.
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#5
11-28-2007, 11:53 AM
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Re: Overbetting: When to use it?
[ QUOTE ]
I think people have pretty much covered the entire spectrum, so basically it's never good to overbet the pot apparently. [/ QUOTE ] So, um, why aren't we all playing pot limit? I think about this question a lot. If overbetting is bad, or is only good once in a rare while, then why not play PL? If we're playing NL, shouldn't we be taking more advantage of the N part of that? A lot of the strategy we've all been raised on advocates the classic 2/3 to 3/4 PSB, because it has the advantage of being a good bet size whatever we're trying to accomplish. But I think that in embracing that, we've lost sight of when to risk the overbet. I know that I overbet with what I think is the best hand on the river, and sometimes with air on the river because of that. But flop and turn overbets--which I do live fairly regularly to play a big pot when desired--seem a lot less successful online, so I basically avoid them. I think that's a large leak in my online play.
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#7
11-28-2007, 03:24 PM
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Re: Overbetting: When to use it?
A good example imo. His range is pretty much mid PPs, straight draws and Kx. I doubt he calls any river bet anyway with a PP given the board and he obviously is folding busted straight draws. Since he didnt lead the river that leads me to think his hand is meh and hes looking for a cheap showdown and makes Kx his most likely holding. Since were splitting with Kx an overbet here is a good way to push him off it and let me win the pot outright
Poker Stars, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter BTN: $434.10 SB: $431 BB: $570.50 UTG: $400 UTG+1: $416 UTG+2: $237 Hero (MP1): $408 MP2: $94 CO: $509.60 Pre-Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP1) 3 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $16</font>, 4 folds, BB calls $12 Flop: ($34) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players) BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $24</font>, BB calls $24 Turn: ($82) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players) BB checks, Hero checks River: ($82) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players) BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $98</font>, BB folds
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#8
11-28-2007, 03:32 PM
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Re: Overbetting: When to use it?
a question concerning overbets: assuming i flop a big draw like overs+ flushdraw or better am in position and one guy bets into me, is a open push the best move here? I've seen this a couple of times and wonder if it's the best solution.
oh yeah, i obviously don't mean pushing 100bb into a 5bb pot or something, more like into a 20bb pot for example.
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#9
11-28-2007, 08:58 PM
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Re: Overbetting: When to use it?
[ QUOTE ]
a question concerning overbets: assuming i flop a big draw like overs+ flushdraw or better am in position and one guy bets into me, is a open push the best move here? I've seen this a couple of times and wonder if it's the best solution. oh yeah, i obviously don't mean pushing 100bb into a 5bb pot or something, more like into a 20bb pot for example. [/ QUOTE ] It's generally opponent-specific. It's definitely more +EV against your better "thinking" opponents. Whereas against your typical muppet of a calling station who has top pair/sh.1t kicker you're often better off just calling down and hoping to hit, because your fold equity is far smaller- but you'll still get paid off if you make your hand.
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#10
11-28-2007, 04:42 PM
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Re: Overbetting: When to use it?
[ QUOTE ]
A good example imo. His range is pretty much mid PPs, straight draws and Kx. I doubt he calls any river bet anyway with a PP given the board and he obviously is folding busted straight draws. Since he didnt lead the river that leads me to think his hand is meh and hes looking for a cheap showdown and makes Kx his most likely holding. Since were splitting with Kx an overbet here is a good way to push him off it and let me win the pot outright River: ($82) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players) BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $98</font>, BB folds [/ QUOTE ] I think this is a good example of the overbet to avoid a split, but that's a pretty specific applicatio. What I wonder here is how much the extra $16 mattered? That is, he may also have folded to $25 or $50 or $75. The key variables that I don't see being discussed much are * What % of the time do what dollar amounts get called by worse hands? * What % of the time do what dollar amounts get called by better hands? If we have estimates of those, we can actually solve the EV question of the bet size.
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