I think this one is interesting...

ggbman · #1 03-30-2007, 11:00 AM

4 handed 20-40 game. I am percieved as a winner who can do crazy stuff from time to time, and villian thinks he can outplay me. Villian in this hand is definitly a winner in these games. I think he is too aggressive and spews on the flop and turn in an effort to showdown against me a lot. I have won a few pots where i had him outkicked etc... this session, he is capable of tilting pretty hard but i don't think it's relevant here. Onto the hand...

I raise T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] OTB, villian calls in the SB, BB comes along. 3 to the flop of 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. It checks to me, and i check. Turn comes the 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. It checks to me again, now i elect to bet, villian calls in the SB, the BB folds. He would almost always bet any pair on the turn, and would very often bet ace high, especially if his other card was a club. River comes the 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and villian donks...

So, here are the issues. He should be bluffing a non pair hand worse than Ace high a decent amount here i think. However, i don't really know if i can rep anything with a raise given my image. Also, villian is a capable handreader, so a bluff 3 bet would not be out of the question.

So first question is, who is raising? Secondly, if he 3 bets, it would seem like it has to be a bluff a pretty large % of the time, so should a bluff cap be out of the question? Also if anyone has feelings on the turn obviously i'm interested.

Buffsta8 · #2 03-30-2007, 11:05 AM

whats his cold calling range like pre flop? could our hand have showdown value?

ggbman · #3 03-30-2007, 11:12 AM

It could, but i mean i dont think it has enough to call the bet. His cold calling range is pretty wide depending on his mood, like i said he thinks he can outplay me. He can have any suited connectors, possibly offsuit connectors 89 and up, and he'll show up with Ax and some K7-KQ type hands occasionally. I dont know the frequency with which he 3 bets smaller pairs and weaker breoadways, prolly a bit more often often than not but he definitly limps/coldcalls a lot preflop for my liking.

dangerfish · #4 03-30-2007, 11:12 AM

Ok,

You are definately putting some thought into what most would consider an easy fold. Your basically looking to fold out K high here (as it would appear that is the only better hand capable of folding to your raise). If you really think he is capable of reading your river raise as a bluff and 3 bet rebluffing you then I don't think this hand is so much your problem as your game selection. I'll be interested to see what others say.

ggbman · #5 03-30-2007, 11:22 AM

Well I am fine with my expectation in this particular game [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Just because he is capable of bluff 3 betting doesnt mean he does it in the right spots vs. me. In any event, the more i look at this hand the more cool i think it is. I mean really, look at his line, how this not be a pure bluff unless he has like Ac 3x or 3c Ax? It just makes no sense at all.

On the flip side, since i would not usually value raise an 8 on the river (i could have A8/k8 after the turn) a river raise by me should set off alarm bells for him. I think this is a cool spot, looking forward to hearing more thoughts...

sonartec · #6 03-30-2007, 11:59 AM

I think u nailed it, he is going to have alot of trouble putting you on a legit hand that raises here, will probably call with his A hi hands and three bet you with junk that has no showdown value, I personally just think you give up here..

Buffsta8 · #7 03-30-2007, 12:12 PM

ggbman,

I was just reacting to the would problably bet A high on turn. So if this was the case his range is K9-KJ 9T 9J etc etc and if he were more likely to re raise KT and KJ pre flop then you could narrow him down to a fairly narrow range. As you identified the main problem you have is its very hard for you to represent anything credible here but I don't think that should stop you bluff raising and bluff capping [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Problem is if he has A3 or even A high he may very well call your bluff raise rather than letting you bluff cap on him.

DeathDonkey · #8 03-30-2007, 12:14 PM

I'd be tempted to call. If he has king high and drags it it will be funny and give you a goofier image too so its not all bad [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

whodaman · #9 03-30-2007, 04:38 PM

the answer is to not bet the turn. He could c/r you here with air or a pair and your not gonna like any of your options if he does so.Once you check the flop, i think you have to check the turn since you can't rep anything

As for the river based on how you played it, i instaraise. If he calls... good for you in the long run. He almost never has a pair here unless it is 22 or a rivered pair. He might b/c ace high but I think you wan't him doing this.

a rebours · #10 03-30-2007, 05:05 PM

why did you check the flop?