10nl-QQ w/ AKx on board- critque my play plz

qwertyas · #1 10-23-2007, 09:58 AM

hey guys,

Been multitabling and been pushed around a bit pf, ppl coming over the top of my pf raise put committing themselves and me not having a hand good enough i wanna go in so me folding causing me to be a bit frustrated.

This hand come up and it was pretty interesting I want your guys opinions on this, was it a bad play and absolute spew, or just me thinking to much at these stakes? Suggestions please!

so just new to the table, no read on villain

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Poker"]http://www.flopturnriver.com/reviews/Online-Poker-PokerStars.php#converter]Poker Stars[/url] Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($5.70)
SB ($11.45)
BB ($9.85)
UTG ($14.35)
UTG+1 ($3.90)
Hero ($10.40)
MP2 :#A500AF(villain)/ ($13.70)
MP3 ($4.20)
CO ($11.30)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.3, MP2 :#A500AF(villain)/ calls $0.30, 5 folds.

standard 3xbb raise, villain behind me calls not sure what he could have

Flop: ($0.75) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $0.65,

flop isnt good for my hand because of the 2 overcards but i c bet here any way because im sure villain doesnt know what i have and i would do exactly the same thing if i had AA/KK/AK/AQ/AJ i bet .65c into .75c cause i wanted to outprice fd's, get an A/rag to fold and try to get him to fold/outprice him if he decides to try to go for a gutter, trying to 'protect' my hand (plz correct me if i'm using the term wrong pretty new to poker here)

villain raises to $1.7,

this reraise really confuses me. I'm thinking to myself if he has a set but it doesn't seem likely because he would have reraised with AA/KK pf and I also dont get the feeling hes got AK or 22 so I think about it for a while. It seems to me that hes got an A and I'm leaning towards folding but then at the same time I'm thinking why would he play a pair of aces like this? I could easily have AK/AQ or AJ so i dont think hes just got an A. Half of me is thinking/really hoping hes just doing this with air or being a donk, I'm a bit fustrasted of being pushed around tonight so last min decision is I call with the intentions of check raising on the turn when he bets out (which i was pretty sure he would do)
Hero calls $1.05.

Turn: ($4.15) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, villain bets $2.25, Hero raises to $8.4, villain calls $6.15.

ok so blank hits and i check and he raises. I'm always hearing about all the pros talking about "trusting your instincts/going with your read etc so I'm like "I'll trust my read here" and raise all in and he calls. As soon as he does i'm like [censored] im screwed

River: ($20.95) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $20.95

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qc Qd (one pair, queens).
villain has Ad 6d (two pair, aces and sixes).
Outcome: villain wins $20.95. 

little bit suprised here cos if I did have and A and a better kicker he would be in bad shape but at the same time he did have a million outs and the best hand

so what are your thoughts? Am I being absolutely spewy here any sugessions that I can do and why? Did i over think the situation and should have just folded to the raise on the flop since he would probually have an ace.

things i did that i know were absolute spew:
1) let past events affect my now judgment. If I didn't let the past events of me being pushed out of hands get to me this would have been an easy fold on the flop. I think I wanted to win the pot to much
2) On the turn when i checked raised i probually gave him around the right odds to call since he was drawing to a fd and there was a chance his pair of Aces were good and he could have hit his kicker.

please give us a full explaination not things like donk,noob, abosulute spew and no reason why

thanks!

RapidEvolution · #2 10-23-2007, 10:09 AM

I've been guilty of this too, in the past too, qwert. At 10NL (and I'm learning at 25NL too, sometimes) the most obvious reasoning is usually correct. Why is he raising the flop? He thinks he either has you beat, or will have you beat. With 2 overcards, I think you've gotta fold to this raise.

I hope you took a break after this hand. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Making a stand with two overs on the board and aggression from a villain is tilted thinking for sure. If you're still steaming from other hands, you need to take a break. Your bankroll will thank you. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I don't really mind the cbet (as you said, you might very well have AK/AQ) unless he's a calling station and will call you down with a weak ace. Once he raises, think about what he might have. 22 is possible, but hands like Adxd and KdQd are possible as well. Even if he's a donk with K2, you're behind. Fold on the flop, take a break, and come back refreshed. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Good luck!

No1Addict · #3 10-23-2007, 10:37 AM

I think the flop re-raise sais you are beat and he's not going anywhere so I'd just fold.

Obviously the guy is not a thinking player. Make a note and get 3 streets worth of value when you do have AQ, AK. He is playing any ace believing that he'll be good if he makes top pair so you need to make him pay.

Assuming players at these stakes are straightforward brings more money in the long run IMO (at NL10 obviously).

Das Budrick · #4 10-23-2007, 11:43 AM

Your initial flop bet is pretty standard because it takes the pot down a lot and if we raises or smooth calls we know we are pretty much beat and done with the hand. When he raises, this is an easy fold.

An unknown villain at 10NL will very often have garbage here; the problem is that it's mostly garbage that beats you, AXs, KXs, AX0, KXo, not to mention good hands like 22, AK etc. You're behind a lot of his raising range so just dump it. As played, turn is a standard c/f, c/r is terrible.

Going with your read is fine when you have a read, but by definition when villain is unknown, you have no reads on him. Only do this if you have a solid read that villain is doing this with air a reasonable amount of the time.

I wrote this as though you were shoving the turn for value. If you are trying to represent a monster and get him to fold a better hand, he is NOT paying attention to what you have at 10NL. He is paying attention to what HE has. If he has an ace he isn't putting it down.

toymach776 · #5 10-23-2007, 11:55 AM

At 10NL, I would raise a little mre pf. I make it 0.40 here to open. On the flop the cbet is standard, but when you get raised you have to give up here. Villains at 10NL are rarely going to be "making a move" on you in this stuation with this flop texture. In a way he was here, but more likely hes probably stupid enough to think that he has the best hand often enough here to raise you. This guy is obviously a spewtard and there will be plenty of opportunities to get your money in against him much better. I agree that you wanted to win this pot too much. Give it up and move on to the next hand.

CaptVimes · #6 10-23-2007, 11:55 AM

NL10 bet until you meet resistance then reevaluate.

Ok, first you need to think about what kind of hands will call a bet. (Raise more preflop=value and discourages trashier hands to play) big pairs would probably re-raise here. So that leaves glut of Pocket pairs (22-TT), some broadway hands (JT etc...) and Ax hands (especially in the micro's), more particularly Axs.

Flop - you get just a rotten flop for your hand. A big chunk of villain's range here contains an A or a K but then again so does ours(if villain isn't brain dead). Your cbet is the right thing to do. When villain raises you, you have to really slow down. With that flop and your continued aggression the chances that villain is bluffing here are really small. Why would the reraise fool you? He's trying to tell you he's got an A or a flush draw(and about 80% of the time it's some kind of A). It narrows his range way down. Frustration can = tilt which will make you make bad decisions. Getting pushed around happens to all of us at times. Frustration is not the right reason to call here, though. If you feel this frustration happening, maybe you should take a break for a couple hours.

Your way off on the turn if you think he's bluffing more than 10 or 15% of the time here. Certainly not 50%. Don't fall into the trap of finding ways to go all the way with premium hands when the board and villain are clearly telling you to fold. If I get to this turn its mostly a check/fold. Most villains here, if they are drawing, will take the free card. Check raising is pure spew at nl10. You have very little fold equity against a donk with an A. They are not thinking about your cards or if they are dominated. That's why they are donks.

Panthro · #7 10-23-2007, 12:37 PM

at 10NL people play A-rag like the nuts when they hit top pair. Flop bet is fine, but fold to the raise. Turn is awful.

ElectricWaffles · #8 10-23-2007, 12:47 PM

I think the above analysis is spot on.

I think maybe you did out think yourself here a bit =). I would really suggest taking people's bets at face value, unless you've got evidence (not a feeling) that something else is true.

The cliche "Go with your gut instinct" I think would apply to live play to a greater extent than online play. For example you might be subconciously picking up on somebodies nervous ticks or whatever live. Online the only solid information you have is the betting pattern/bet sizes, so i think you have to be very analytical.

The thing that's most revealing about this hand is your opening paragraph and the word "frustrated". I read that as "I'm tilting because I keep getting forced to fold". That leads me to the conclusion you really wanted to find a spot to get AI.

I think tilt can creep up on you without you realising it, so you've got to be aware of the signs and have to will to stop playing for a bit, which for me is the hardest thing when i'm on tilt.

I'd suggest making tea. For me the ritual of brewing tea and taking a few minuites to sit down and drink is very relaxing and the amines in the tea pep you up a bit. FWIW tea is far better for this than coffee, in my opinion.

I think from the issues you brought up in your post that you do know the best way to play this hand, I'd try and stick to that. Any gaps I think you could fill in from the superb advice from CaptVimes and others.

JereLock · #9 10-23-2007, 01:12 PM

didn't read responses yet

3bb pf raise is a bit weak imo, even oop for 10NL
also, the flop should have shut you down with a caller to your pf raise... c bet is appropriate, but with reraise I would have folded... he has to assume you have a hand based on your pf raise w/o a read on you, and your pf raise was weak enough that he just might have limped with 22... your hand doesn't beat much at all here

as always, my posts are learning experiences only...

qwertyas · #10 10-23-2007, 02:35 PM

thanks a lot everyone for great and fast replies!