Adjusting to Perennial Cold-Callers

[AlanBostick]

The $15-$30 game at the Oaks Club in Emeryville, California, used to be the tightest game in the Bay Area. Since the poker boom took off, though, it's gotten way, way looser. The game is a mix of total duffers, kids who watch too much TV poker, gamblers (including some smart ones who can play almost any two cards and then play well after the flop), and regular winners.

A characteristic feature of the game these days is that many players cold-call preflop raises with just about any hand that they would limp in with. Players will reraise with their great hands, but much more often they will just trail in after the raiser with mediocre hands -- often with hands with which I personally would hesitate to see a flop for a single bet.

Even the good players in this game, the props, the local pros, the otherwise-tight, solid winners who have been taking money home from the game for years, often cold-call preflop raises.

I rarely cold-call myself. Very infrequently I'll be in late position with a hand like suited KQ or AT with a raise and two callers in front of me. Otherwise, I fold hands I don't feel comfortable three-betting.

In this game, opening with a preflop raise will occasionally win the blinds but much more often get one to three cold-callers, plus the players in the blinds. It is tough to isolate a single limper. Isolating a raiser is rather more likely but by no means guaranteed.

How should I be playing to better exploit this general tendency to cold-call preflop raises? Should I open up my calling standards? What sorts of hands should I be open-raising with? what sorts should I be raising after limpers? Should I be three-betting with more hands or less?

I'm sure I haven't given enough information to get a single "correct" answer. Nevertheless, discussion of pros and cons, what I should be thinking about to get my own answers, etc., would be very helpful to me.

[brettbrettr]

This sounds like a fairly standard play-Ed-Miller-poker type game.

[AlanBostick]

I've read SSH, and there are aspects of Miller's recommendations that I don't like. For example, he recommends limping in with small pocket pairs and small suited aces in early and middle position. All too often when I do this I face a raise after me, and wind up paying too much to see a flop out of position with a hand that needs the flop to hit it hard in order to continue. Five-way action just isn't good enough to justify paying two bets to see a flop with a small pair.

(Yes, I know this doesn't directly address the cold-calling issue.)

[GreywolfNYC]

[ QUOTE ]
Five-way action just isn't good enough to justify paying two bets to see a flop with a small pair.


[/ QUOTE ]
Alan,
Although I'm not fond of open-limping or playing small pairs up front, I think a table where there's five-way action for two bets is exactly the right situation to play those baby pairs and suited aces. You've just got to be able to get away from the hand if you don't flop a set or four to a flush.

[GreywolfNYC]

[ QUOTE ]
Five-way action just isn't good enough to justify paying two bets to see a flop with a small pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
Alan,
Although I'm not fond of open-limping or playing small pairs up front, I think a table where there's five-way action for two bets is exactly the right situation to play those baby pairs. You've just got to be able to get away from the hand if you don't flop a set.

[AlanBostick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Five-way action just isn't good enough to justify paying two bets to see a flop with a small pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
Alan,
Although I'm not fond of open-limping or playing small pairs up front, I think a table where there's five-way action for two bets is exactly the right situation to play those baby pairs. You've just got to be able to get away from the hand if you don't flop a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

The odds of flopping a set are 7.5:1 against. When you figure the likelihood of flopping a set and it not holding up, it's more like 10:1 against. In order to profitably pay two bets before the flop with a small pair in a five-way pot, one has to hope to extract five big bets in post-flop action from the other players in the hand.

For a single bet in a multiway pot, it's easy to get the needed postflop action to turn a profit. It is rather less so when the preflop investment is two bets.

Bringing it back to the cold-calling topic, suppose UTG raises and gets three cold callers. You're on the button holding 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Do you call here? Really?

[Man of Means]

[ QUOTE ]
Bringing it back to the cold-calling topic, suppose UTG raises and gets three cold callers. You're on the button holding 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Do you call here? Really?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's table dependent. usually fold, but when you are more likely to see the turn for free, and to get action when you hit your set, call more. 22 kinda sucks because it doesn't do well in making straights or winning UI. But pocket fives+, ah, how can you resist?

An awesome situation is when you have a loose table and you're to the right of a LAG. Limp in with 88-44 and checkraise the field if you flop your set. Otherwise, if you miss but you sense weakness all around you can bet into the LAG and let him raise to protect your hand for you.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Bringing it back to the cold-calling topic, suppose UTG raises and gets three cold callers. You're on the button holding 22. Do you call here? Really?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya. Relative position is goot.

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
suppose UTG raises and gets three cold callers. You're on the button holding 22. Do you call here? Really?

[/ QUOTE ]

Every single time. In the game you describe I would probably call two bets with it given a raiser and a single caller if there were players to act behind me.

Sounds to me like you realize isolation plays aren't going to get the money here (things like one limper you raise A3o on the button) but buckling down for a wild ride and playing a lot of hands that do well multiway will. Get in there with your T8s after a raise and two callers, call closing the action in the BB with 74o getting 11:1, etc.

I think you are probably playing too tight and those props / pros you see are playing better.

-DeathDonkey

[geormiet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Five-way action just isn't good enough to justify paying two bets to see a flop with a small pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
Alan,
Although I'm not fond of open-limping or playing small pairs up front, I think a table where there's five-way action for two bets is exactly the right situation to play those baby pairs. You've just got to be able to get away from the hand if you don't flop a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

The odds of flopping a set are 7.5:1 against. When you figure the likelihood of flopping a set and it not holding up, it's more like 10:1 against. In order to profitably pay two bets before the flop with a small pair in a five-way pot, one has to hope to extract five big bets in post-flop action from the other players in the hand.

For a single bet in a multiway pot, it's easy to get the needed postflop action to turn a profit. It is rather less so when the preflop investment is two bets.

Bringing it back to the cold-calling topic, suppose UTG raises and gets three cold callers. You're on the button holding 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Do you call here? Really?

[/ QUOTE ]

The times you win and lose with a set are combined together to give you an overall expectation. You don't need to "adjust 7.5:1 to 10:1 to account for the times you lose. I have idea how you came up with needing to earn 5 big bets back postflop...there is nearly that in the pot already.

Not calling two with any pair knowing there are at least 5 players in is ludicrous.