in over my head

[bicyclekick]

For a while I was check calling that flop a lot more and while I think it's fine, I think it's better to give up right away on that board vs a competent player.

[mtgordon]

Just trying to understand things better:

Is the reason for c/f the flop because he most likely has you dominated w/Ax (x>7) or he hit the flop and you are drawing to 3 outs?

Also I'm curious about 3betting from the bb. How low will you guys go w/the 3bet?

[HOWMANY]

well if the plan is to c/c c/c c/c then basically 1 sb is going in when you are ahead and 2.5bb are going in when you are behind. that seems like a pretty good reason to c/f already. if thats not the plan then are we c/c flop c/f turn? c/c c/c c/f? the reason you c/f is that even though it seems wimpy is that all the other options are much much worse.

[mtgordon]

I don't think you statements go well together. I'm certainly not saying that c/f is not the correct play here, but it seems like your first statement about 1sb when ahead, 2.5bb when behind implies that it will get checked down on the turn/river if you're not ahead. Otherwise you'll be gaining more than 1sb if you call down and are ahead.

However, if this is true (that they will not continue to bet if behind, then it makes for an easy c/c flop, c/f turn because you'll know almost exactly where you are. Again, I'm not arguing against c/f but rather saying that your first statement doesn't seem correct.

[HOWMANY]

the problem is that we dont know if villain is going to give up on the flop, turn or river with his bluffs and we just leave ourselves guessing. i dont know exactly how many bets will go in ahead vs behind but the certain thing is that more bets will go in when behind and our opponent has pretty solid control over when that will happen.

this can be easily turned into an "i know he knows i know" leveling thing where he knows you must have A high to c/c flop. thus if he bets turn he either beats A high or expects us to fold it. thus if we call turn we are announcing we are showdown bound so if he fires river again we must conclude that he expects us to call which means we should fold. but perhaps he knows this so his range also includes bluffs. blah blah blah.

the simple and best way to play it is fold now. flop sucks for our hand and allows him to outplay us easily. i can't imagine calling on this flop. whether we put in .5, 1.5 or 2.5 bets when ahead, the certain thing is that we will put in 2.5 when behind when showdown bound. not gonna waste time to stove but im sure that this hand is not looking good on this flop.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
the problem is that we dont know if villain is going to give up on the flop, turn or river with his bluffs and we just leave ourselves guessing. i dont know exactly how many bets will go in ahead vs behind but the certain thing is that more bets will go in when behind and our opponent has pretty solid control over when that will happen.

this can be easily turned into an "i know he knows i know" leveling thing where he knows you must have A high to c/c flop. thus if he bets turn he either beats A high or expects us to fold it. thus if we call turn we are announcing we are showdown bound so if he fires river again we must conclude that he expects us to call which means we should fold. but perhaps he knows this so his range also includes bluffs. blah blah blah.

the simple and best way to play it is fold now. flop sucks for our hand and allows him to outplay us easily. i can't imagine calling on this flop. whether we put in .5, 1.5 or 2.5 bets when ahead, the certain thing is that we will put in 2.5 when behind when showdown bound. not gonna waste time to stove but im sure that this hand is not looking good on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[Mr.Busto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the problem is that we dont know if villain is going to give up on the flop, turn or river with his bluffs and we just leave ourselves guessing. i dont know exactly how many bets will go in ahead vs behind but the certain thing is that more bets will go in when behind and our opponent has pretty solid control over when that will happen.

this can be easily turned into an "i know he knows i know" leveling thing where he knows you must have A high to c/c flop. thus if he bets turn he either beats A high or expects us to fold it. thus if we call turn we are announcing we are showdown bound so if he fires river again we must conclude that he expects us to call which means we should fold. but perhaps he knows this so his range also includes bluffs. blah blah blah.

the simple and best way to play it is fold now. flop sucks for our hand and allows him to outplay us easily. i can't imagine calling on this flop. whether we put in .5, 1.5 or 2.5 bets when ahead, the certain thing is that we will put in 2.5 when behind when showdown bound. not gonna waste time to stove but im sure that this hand is not looking good on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

sick

[worm33]

[ QUOTE ]
the problem is that we dont know if villain is going to give up on the flop, turn or river with his bluffs and we just leave ourselves guessing. i dont know exactly how many bets will go in ahead vs behind but the certain thing is that more bets will go in when behind and our opponent has pretty solid control over when that will happen.

this can be easily turned into an "i know he knows i know" leveling thing where he knows you must have A high to c/c flop. thus if he bets turn he either beats A high or expects us to fold it. thus if we call turn we are announcing we are showdown bound so if he fires river again we must conclude that he expects us to call which means we should fold. but perhaps he knows this so his range also includes bluffs. blah blah blah.

the simple and best way to play it is fold now. flop sucks for our hand and allows him to outplay us easily. i can't imagine calling on this flop. whether we put in .5, 1.5 or 2.5 bets when ahead, the certain thing is that we will put in 2.5 when behind when showdown bound. not gonna waste time to stove but im sure that this hand is not looking good on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um check call the flop with hands other than ace high.

[HOWMANY]

i was gonna mention that but didnt really feel like it bc just getting straight value with pairs or folds when we have gutshots with flop c/r is probably a lot better than the tiny value of disguising flop c/c with A high/bottom pair on this sort of flop.

[MaverickUSC]

fantastic post howmany