Heads Up NL Shove-or-Fold Hypothetical Question

PhlegmWad · #1 10-13-2007, 11:14 PM

Here's an interesting theoretical heads-up question: You are in the following NL game:

Heads up, shove or fold.

Okay, now, the question is which of the following 2 CHANGES would you prefer to make.

Change A
You start with a random hand and you are slated to go 2nd. You are offered the opportunity to bet first, leaving you with a random hand betting first.

Change B
You start with a random hand and are slated to bet 1st. You are offerred the opportunity to upgrade your random hand by exchanging any one card in your hand for any other card in the deck, but you now go 2nd.

Which change do you make? Do you A) take first strike or B) take hand upgrade?

Extra credit: Would your answer be different if, say, in case B, you were could move from random hand to, say, JJ in exchange for moving from first to act, to 2nd to act?

Gonso · #2 10-14-2007, 01:34 AM

stacks/blinds?

PhlegmWad · #3 10-14-2007, 06:01 AM

Shove or fold. Stacks are equal. Blinds immaterial relative to stacks. Remember, the question is NOT "would you rather have JJ or a random hand?" ... the question is "which CHANGE would you rather make?" -- the change in position OR the NET change in cards from RH to JJ MINUS the change from first-to-act to last-to-act

pzhon · #4 10-14-2007, 07:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Which change do you make? Do you A) take first strike or B) take hand upgrade?

[/ QUOTE ]
B. I'd rather be rich than dumb.

Acting second is an advantage except for a small range of stack sizes, where you are hurt by posting a larger blind. You have asked whether to take a disadvantage, or an advantage.

If you make the question sensible, whether one should prefer a better hand or a positional advantage, then it depends on the stack sizes. Pushing with very deep stacks is a big mistake unless you have AA, so you have to give up almost all of the time when you are first to act.

PhlegmWad · #5 10-14-2007, 09:50 AM

read the question ... its only theoretical so dont apply it to a tourney situation.. and I believe the answer is not as obvious as you think.

Also, in a SHOVE OR FOLD scenario, acting second is a DISADVANTAGE, not an advantage as you have no fold equity

Paxinor · #6 10-14-2007, 10:59 AM

position in HU preflop shov or fold games doesn't matter at all, because its pretty easy to calculate optimal strategy therefore, the one with the better distribution wins which would be B...

the one with the better distribution always wins, exept if one is an idiot...

jay_shark · #7 10-14-2007, 11:14 AM

Phlegwad , have you read the SAGE system ?

What happens to the sb , when he employs a raise or fold strategy with more than 7bb's against an opponent who has him covered ?

pzhon · #8 10-14-2007, 12:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe the answer is not as obvious as you think.

[/ QUOTE ]
It should be.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, in a SHOVE OR FOLD scenario, acting second is a DISADVANTAGE, not an advantage as you have no fold equity

[/ QUOTE ]
This is wrong, as I explained. With 1000 BB stacks, the optimal strategy is for the first player to push with AA, and fold everything else. The second player should call with AA, and fold everything else. The second player wins the blinds over 99% of the time, without putting in any extra money while behind. If you deviate from this as the first player, the times you run into AA more than make up for the times you steal the blinds.

Again, you are asking, "Would you rather cut off your leg, or get $1 million?"

Dromar · #9 10-14-2007, 01:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Which change do you make? Do you A) take first strike or B) take hand upgrade?

[/ QUOTE ]
B. I'd rather be rich than dumb.

Acting second is an advantage except for a small range of stack sizes, where you are hurt by posting a larger blind. You have asked whether to take a disadvantage, or an advantage.

If you make the question sensible, whether one should prefer a better hand or a positional advantage, then it depends on the stack sizes. Pushing with very deep stacks is a big mistake unless you have AA, so you have to give up almost all of the time when you are first to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I thought.