Gross spot with 9's

[Frond]

What odds are we getting on the turn here anyways if we call 2 BBs? Is it like around 7:1ish? This is a big friggin pot. I need to think about this one a bit more. Odds wise prolly not goot enough to call but I am going to ponder this one for a bit and consult my ouji board.

[fuzz66]

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just curious what raising preflop here in a game like this without position accomplishes?

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In most games raising from early position will thin the field some, although it did not appear to here. This is also a raise for value. While 99 does not win as often as large pocket pairs it still has a small equity edge. Raising this from early position also widens your raising range. If you flop a set here, you are much more likely to get lots of action from one pair and two pair hands, because they will tend to put you on Ax with x large or a bigger pocket pair. This may also get you more action on later early position raises because they saw you raise 99.

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so basically, without position were raising here for set value in a game where its likely to get 3- bet or even capped? i raise this in ANY game from the CO or OTB but in this game i prefere limping in early.also, unless you hit your set no ones gonna see your hand showndown anyway like what, 85% of the time?

[fuzz66]

BTW, i tend to be a little nitty, so take it for what its worth.

[Mook]

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just curious what raising preflop here in a game like this without position accomplishes?

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In most games raising from early position will thin the field some, although it did not appear to here. This is also a raise for value. While 99 does not win as often as large pocket pairs it still has a small equity edge. Raising this from early position also widens your raising range. If you flop a set here, you are much more likely to get lots of action from one pair and two pair hands, because they will tend to put you on Ax with x large or a bigger pocket pair. This may also get you more action on later early position raises because they saw you raise 99.

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It's funny how the OP describes the game as "hyperaggressive", and then gives us a hand example that's 8 ways to the flop for 1 bet. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

But seriously, in a game that's truly hyperaggressive preflop, not only do you have to raise this hand, but I would fold it before I limped in with it. Yes, I said fold. In fact, 99 is the exact holding S&M highlights in HEPFAP as being a trouble hand in loose, wild games, because the variance it adds is so huge (you often tie yourself to the pot by hitting even the tiniest piece of the flop) while the additional EV gained by playing it is small.

There's no point in playing mid-pairs for set value in wild games, because 90% of the time it'll cost you 4 bets to see if you can hit your 8:1 shot. So if you're not comfortable raising for all the reasons mentioned above (and with playing poker with it when you hit a small piece of the board, as the OP did), you might as well dump it, especially from EP.

Oh, and I'm not calling two cold on the turn either when that death card hits.

Mook

[Frond]

IMO any pair is good to play in a wild game.

[James.]

raise pf. you have a strong hand, the fewers players left behind you the better, you want to get JT, QT, Ax, Kx type hands to fold if possible, and you like money. even if 5(just off the top of my head) people call you still make money on the raise and still have good(but decreased) implied odds for our set value. raising increases the times you win without flopping a set, while still making money when you flop big. plus, it's to your benefit to raise more than JJ+ pf and AK.

i think you played postflop well.

don't show that river card. it doesn't matter.

[One Outer]

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just curious what raising preflop here in a game like this without position accomplishes?

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I think James covered it, but since you're asking me...

You raise this for value. It has an equity edge, and it's not negligible.

There is also metagame value there. Bad low limit players tend to make "one hand reads", IMO. They see you do something that may look bad to them once and they'll forever see you in that light. This happened to me the other night when I called a serial bluffer w/ J high on the river. MHIG, and for the rest of the night he was three betting me super light (by super light, I mean w/ 97o) and making ridiculous calldowns. Show them your raising range isn't just TT+ and AQ+ and you make yourself very difficult to play against.

[fuzz66]

like i said, im a nit!

[swifttarrow]

I still don't understand the reasons for raising 99 preflop; in these types of loose games, i just don't see myself folding out anyone very often, and i end up inflating the pot and forcing myself to play OOP on a flop with a very high likelihood of overcards. Equity wise, I ran 99 up against 10 j offsuit, q 7 suited, k4 suited, and ace 5 offsuit (a pretty common range for opponents in 3/6 live games), and it's actually 4th place in terms of win percentage to the river! Even a flop, say, 457 rainbow, where everybody gets a piece but im currently ahead, im still only 19% to win, which is not even break even equity. Does anyone support NOT raising the flop? Im often finding people peeling for the turn with two overcards anyways; ak, qk, ace jack type of hands are so tied to their hands that they want to take a turn card no matter what.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

I'm coming up with 99 as having a fraction over 20% equity against those four hands (third best) with PokerStove. Change the JTo to 87o and 99 becomes a solid favorite. You're not going to run into too many lineups where you're not at least break-even unless people are limping hands like TT and AK (which can happen) and you're sometimes going to run into lineups where you have much better than average equity.

So, people who think that you should raise any time you have an equity edge do have a point. I just happen to think that the game conditions as described probably put you into a few too many reverse implied odds situations so that you'll probably underperform you equity if you raise. Still, I think it's a close decision. If raising is actually the better option, it probably isn't +EV by that much more over just calling and comes with a sharp increase in variance. It's quite possible that someone who likes playing LAGgy should probably raise and someone who likes playing tighter should just call. I do know that David Sklansky has said that weak-tight play is close to correct in truly wild and crazy games.

I would consider not raising the flop, but it depends upon my read of the initial bettor and the people behind me. I can't really explain how that all works, though.