river bluff vs. 2p2er

[tannenj]

the 2p2er calls a 3bet next to never.

i'm probably something like 50/50 against the other guy's range for continuing. that might be a little off, i'd have to think about it and pokerstove a little.

but really, one of us can start another thread about this if you want, can we end the discussion about preflop?

[willw9]

Another relative question: Do you think villain ever has better than 1 pair here?

[tannenj]

the read was that was big here very, very rarely

[ikestoys]

[ QUOTE ]
but really, one of us can start another thread about this if you want, can we end the discussion about preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

no its the first mistake in a hand that lead to another mistake in a hand, don't just dismiss it.

[ikestoys]

30/13s don't fold to bets much:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,715,728,608 games 0.005 secs 343,145,721,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 58.535% 57.98% 00.55% 994822896 9477546.00 { TT }
Hand 1: 41.465% 40.91% 00.55% 701950620 9477546.00 { 22+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, ATo+, KJo+ }

play with it as you wish, but the only way you come out behind is if villain doesn't call a lot of three bets IP in a squeeze spot.

[tannenj]

looks too wide to me, but within the realm of reasonable i guess.

i fail to see how this calculation makes it an auto 3bet.

[Fonkey123]

3 bet preflop. On the river I have no idea why you're check/raising when a call seems so much better. I also fail to see any metagame implications, because I doubt you're consistently checking a huge hand 3 times.

[goofyballer]

[ QUOTE ]
no its the first mistake in a hand that lead to another mistake in a hand, don't just dismiss it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see the argument for starting another thread if only because having 50% of replies in this thread talking about preflop and 50% talking about the river is going to saturate the quality of the thread a bit in general.

I disagree about one mistake leading to another, though. Change the board a little and give tannen 88 instead of TT and it's pretty much the exact same river spot that he's asking about, except that flatting 88 pre there really isn't a mistake.

Also, the range with which he calls 3bets you gave might as well be his entire CO opening range. Come on dude, just because his VPIP is higher than 25 doesn't mean he's calling a 3bet with every single hand he opens, and it's not as simple as "lol you have equity so 3bet" because it's not like he calls the 3bet and then all five board cards are dealt out with no more action. I still squeeze there personally but I don't like that reasoning.

[terp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no its the first mistake in a hand that lead to another mistake in a hand, don't just dismiss it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see the argument for starting another thread if only because having 50% of replies in this thread talking about preflop and 50% talking about the river is going to saturate the quality of the thread a bit in general.

I disagree about one mistake leading to another, though. Change the board a little and give tannen 88 instead of TT and it's pretty much the exact same river spot that he's asking about, except that flatting 88 pre there really isn't a mistake.

Also, the range with which he calls 3bets you gave might as well be his entire CO opening range. Come on dude, just because his VPIP is higher than 25 doesn't mean he's calling a 3bet with every single hand he opens, and it's not as simple as "lol you have equity so 3bet" because it's not like he calls the 3bet and then all five board cards are dealt out with no more action. I still squeeze there personally but I don't like that reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

v good points, all.

i think a 3b preflop might be slightly more optimal but it's not worth derailing this discussion, especially with goofy's observation that the two "mistakes" aren't really connected. just leave it alone, people.

also tannen, there simply aren't enough better hands in his range that fold here to merit this play relative to his air/monsters.

call the river, or fold.

[spivey]

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet preflop. On the river I have no idea why you're check/raising when a call seems so much better. I also fail to see any metagame implications, because I doubt you're consistently checking a huge hand 3 times.

[/ QUOTE ]