AP Visit: I'm going to Costa Rica

[Jan]

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My ultimate goal is not to sink the company. I want them to pay for their mistakes. I also want them to be a good company going forward.

Am I off base here?

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I'm not privy to the info you have but I don't have this kind of forgiveness. I've heard too many stories to every trust these guys again.

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What I don't get is why anyone would WANT to trust them again? This just seems a bit naive to me. Are people sitting behind their computers actually hoping against hope there is a plausible explanation for how and why they were cheated and ripped off? "Please, Absolute Poker, please tell me you haven't been cheating me all this time when I had such trust in your company!"

COME ON PEOPLE! We WERE naive! My husband has been telling me for months these people are sitting down there in Costa Rica or where ever the hell they are seeing our hole cards cheating in these tournaments and winning the big prizes. I told him he was nuts!

Why? Because I told him they wouldn't risk the ruin of their company because eventually someone would get wind of it and it would be ALL OVER the 2+2 forums. They would never get away with it. That would be the end of the company. He just told me I was very naive.

Well, he was right and I was naive, but 2+2 DID get wind of it and it is all over the forums now, and this is the best we can do!? The evidence everyone has already gotten isn't enough? We want to HELP the cheaters and thieves to go forward and become a better company? Let's kiss and make up? WTF?

If you found your girlfriend in bed with another guy would you be fishing around for explanations? Would you be naive enough to hope against hope there was some plausible explanation? Would you want to help her become a better girlfriend in the future?

Does everyone so not want to believe that they were naive enough to be cheated and stolen from by a company they trusted, that getting money returned and helping the company become a better company is more important than accepting the fact that WE'VE ALL BEEN HAD by Absolute Poker and we should be helping to bring the company down!!!

THIS SUCKS!

[FoxInTheHenHouse]

To all you naysayers coming out of the woodwork....

There is absolutely no downside to Nat and/or others visiting AP's offices. Short of them locking Nat into a room and brainwashing him so he comes back spewing "Absolute is innocent", where's the harm in this visit? If Nat can see first hand how many employees they have, how secure the operation is, what their security staff have to say, etc... where's the harm?

As far as taking Absolute down, it ain't gonna happen. The best we can hope for is that they take what happened seriously enough to fix the holes in their system, pay back the victims and make every effort to be as transparent as possible in the future.

Absolute will suffer, their cash flow will take a big hit from this. Expecting any more is naive and unrealistic. I agree that AP should go down in flames. I agree that this scam probably reaches to the very top of AP's foodchain. But, proving this and bringing them to justice will likely never happen.

History has shown that big companies rarely die in the face of scandal. Companies like Absolute who operate under veils of secrecy and dummy corporations in an unregulated industry like ours are very difficult to get to. If they're willing to allow Nat into their private offices, I say go for it!

[CroMagnon]

There is great value in having one of our own sit down with AP and ask questions about what happened. Ask the same question to multiple people seperately. Then come back and compare what each said and compare it all to what we know. If it washes maybe there is a chance this marriage will survive. If not buh bye.

Without doubt it will bring up more questions. But this Eyore mentality that it'll never have value so don't do it is odd. Maybe it's just the atmosphere of this whole event, but I'm distrustful of people who say don't go. If AP is still trying to snow people they can't be happy that someone from the outside is going to come down, ask a bunch of questions whose answers will then be dissected by several hundred damn smart people.

Go! I look forward to reading the report.

Cro

[e_phemeral]

Don't you guys realize that nothing good can come from a visit to AP by Nat? Undoubtedly, Nat will be required to sign a confidentiality agreement before he is given access to any sensitive information/data. He will be legally constrained in the way he can report back to this forum. That's probably part of AP's plan.

[FoxInTheHenHouse]

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Don't you guys realize that nothing good can come from a visit to AP by Nat? Undoubtedly, Nat will be required to sign a confidentiality agreement before he is given access to any sensitive information/data. He will be legally constrained in the way he can report back to this forum. That's probably part of AP's plan.

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I fail to see your logic here. They invited him. He will undoubtedly come away with more info than he has now or will ever have if he doesn't go. How can you think this is anything but beneficial for our side?

[Jan]

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There is great value in having one of our own sit down with AP and ask questions about what happened. Ask the same question to multiple people seperately. Then come back and compare what each said and compare it all to what we know. If it washes maybe there is a chance this marriage will survive. If not buh bye.

Without doubt it will bring up more questions. But this Eyore mentality that it'll never have value so don't do it is odd. Maybe it's just the atmosphere of this whole event, but I'm distrustful of people who say don't go. If AP is still trying to snow people they can't be happy that someone from the outside is going to come down, ask a bunch of questions whose answers will then be dissected by several hundred damn smart people.

Go! I look forward to reading the report.

Cro

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I think we already KNOW what was happening at AP. I just don't think we're going to find out anything new, and I don't think they should be helped. I think a lot of us are feeling like fools for trusting them and defending online poker to so many people (friends, family, STRANGERS) and we love poker and don't want to believe the companies we put our trust in can be so distrustful. So we're trying to make it right so everything can be okay again. But it is what it is.

Also, if we fully allow ourselves to believe that we have been royally screwed over by one company, then we have to give in to the reality that we may be getting screwed over by other online poker sites as well.

2+2 is a big community. I find it hard to believe that we wouldn't be able to make a HUGE impact on what happens to the future of AP. Why is unrealistic to believe the company can't be folded? Is it really better to keep things quiet? And right now it is being kept pretty quiet, because I can guarantee if the story was getting out I would have heard about it from my husband already who would probably be rubbing it in my face right now. (P.S. I haven't told him what's been happening, but I'm just a low stakes player so it's not hurting my pocketbook).

But, rather than fish around AP for more information that we're never going to get, why not visit the OTHER companies we are still trusting our money to to ensure they are on the up and up?

I would be much more interested in how other poker sites are running their companies HONESTLY than in anything AP has to say at this point. At this point, there is absolutely nothing AP can say or do to ever get me to play on their site again.

The only question I have now is how honest are the other sites where I have my money?

[KCW12]

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This is getting a bit stupid.

While many of you have valid points regarding the potential flaws in the Nat visit to AP, I cannot think of any kind of flawless audit situation.

If a professional audit firm -- even a completely independent one -- audited AP, we would have tons of criticism. Namely, AP could hide what they don't want the auditor to see, and the auditor won't know exactly what to look for. Even if WE could choose the auditing firm, there is no way that any previously uninvolved auditor would be able to know exactly what to look for. Even if we gave this auditor a list of things to examine, he wouldn't be able to come up with other items on the fly. Someone involved the whole time is the ideal candidate to examine AP, as he knows exactly what we're after.

Now, is it possible that AP is simply using Nat as a more legitimate sounding mouthpiece? Yes. Is it likely that AP will allow Nat to see anything that would make them look worse? No. I understand that.

However, I still say it's better than nothing. What is the alternative? We just continue to sit here and guess at things? We take AP's word for what's going on? We wait for the very possibly biased Gaming Associates to issue their report? I'll take my chances with Nat.

I don't think he's going to be snowed by AP garbage. He may not be able to force anything out of them, but I doubt he'll come back as a staunch advocate of AP. And I especially doubt he'd ever allow himself to be bought off.

Let's wait and see what happens.

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This post gets straight to the heart of the matter. Everybody who thinks a visit to AP would be a bad idea because they will try to give Nat a false positive impression of their operations needs to read Dan's post again. Now I don't know Nat, but he has come across as a very intelligent person throughout this whole investigation. He will go there with the knowledge that AP will try to put a positive spin on everything he sees. I think he is smart enough to see through this and to give an objective report on what he thinks is really going on there. And I also believe that him going there would be more useful (in terms of getting information) than a professional audit. He is more knowledgable about the scandal and the facts of what has gone on there than any independent auditor could ever be.

And I agree with the sentiment that AP can recover and be a good company in the future. As has been stated before, not everyone who works at AP is automatically associated with the cheaters. The people here who think AP needs to go down in flames are rushing to judgment. Right now, we need more facts in order to decide exactly who was involved and to what extent. That is one of the things Nat could dig up if he went to AP.

[RedBean]

One has to wonder why AP is reluctant to have a Q&A session on with users on 2+2, but yet they are ready and willing to pay expenses for one or two to visit their facilities.

Obviously, they want to engage the situation on their home turf, and in a controlled situation that they feel they can manipulate for a desired outcome, albeit through positive reinforcement and positive suggestion.

This is a great move by AP in repairing damage done, and staying in complete control of their own fate moving forward. We all know how it will play out, and either accepting or denying this offer plays right into their strategy.

As for Nat, I'd like to see you go from a personal standpoint just to get more info and read the trip report.

But, I'd also advise you against going just because of the possible implications of your visit + being paid could cause undue concerns from the DOJ for you as being an American citizen.

Either way, good luck with what you end up doing. I'd much rather us all chip in and fly Joe Norton, et al to Vegas for a Q&A session with a roomful of relevant 2+2ers....but we know that isn't going to happen because AP is now in complete control of the situation.

[e_phemeral]

[ QUOTE ]
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Don't you guys realize that nothing good can come from a visit to AP by Nat? Undoubtedly, Nat will be required to sign a confidentiality agreement before he is given access to any sensitive information/data. He will be legally constrained in the way he can report back to this forum. That's probably part of AP's plan.

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I fail to see your logic here. They invited him. He will undoubtedly come away with more info than he has now or will ever have if he doesn't go. How can you think this is anything but beneficial for our side?

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He will come away with whatever info AP wants him to come away with. He will most likely be legally constrained in what he can report back. His credibility with (some) people who read these forums will be compromised. These are all good things for AP. AP wants to use Nat's current credibilty with the 2+2 crowd to their advantage. That is all that is happening here.

[timmay28]

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To all you naysayers coming out of the woodwork....

There is absolutely no downside to Nat and/or others visiting AP's offices. Short of them locking Nat into a room and brainwashing him so he comes back spewing "Absolute is innocent", where's the harm in this visit? If Nat can see first hand how many employees they have, how secure the operation is, what their security staff have to say, etc... where's the harm?

As far as taking Absolute down, it ain't gonna happen. The best we can hope for is that they take what happened seriously enough to fix the holes in their system, pay back the victims and make every effort to be as transparent as possible in the future.

Absolute will suffer, their cash flow will take a big hit from this. Expecting any more is naive and unrealistic. I agree that AP should go down in flames. I agree that this scam probably reaches to the very top of AP's foodchain. But, proving this and bringing them to justice will likely never happen.

History has shown that big companies rarely die in the face of scandal. Companies like Absolute who operate under veils of secrecy and dummy corporations in an unregulated industry like ours are very difficult to get to. If they're willing to allow Nat into their private offices, I say go for it!

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Not sure which avenue is best to take since adanthar et all haven't shared all the inside info yet, but if putting Absolute out of business would be best for poker, then go for it - don't sit there and say "history shows blah blah, its too difficult, yada yada" That's weaksauce man. It most certainly can be done. It isn't like Absolute has a monopoly on poker or anything.