Quants without phds?

[SunOfBeach]

Depending on specifically what you mean by 'quant', I think that a PhD is becoming more and more needed to get a truly top job.

[DcifrThs]

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so you agree with me? great.

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Over the short term yes. Over the long term no...like I said there other factors besides PhD-s that are not helping. But long term shouldn't really matter to someone getting into a program now.

And just because someone can't be a quant after a masters, does not mean a masters will be worhless. There are still a lot of lucrative finance jobs besides quant (trading, risk management, portfolio management etc).

So saying that masters is worthles because someone can't be a quant after, would be like saying that doing an MBA is worthless because you can't be a manager right after completing it.

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yea i'm right now interviewing for a variety of different positions (MBA w/ concentration in Mathematical Finance...i.e. took 1 yr course series in math fin).

i can't program in C++ or java, or user defined macros or use complex VBA stuff so i have lost out on a ton of jobs.

if i could do it over again i'd minor in comp sci in undergrad and get an MSFin instead of MBA.

Barron

[ImBetterAtGolf]

you are all fixated on diplomas and not on skills. DcifrThs has just pointed out that he can't write code. What quant job (below top level in the organization) doesn't require writing code? pretty much none. but, you don't need a degree in anything in particular to be able to write code any more than you need a degree in French to read and write in French.

[stinkypete]

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i can't program in C++ or java, or user defined macros or use complex VBA stuff so i have lost out on a ton of jobs.


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so why don't you learn? it's not that hard to be a better programmer than most comp sci majors.

[DcifrThs]

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i can't program in C++ or java, or user defined macros or use complex VBA stuff so i have lost out on a ton of jobs.


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so why don't you learn? it's not that hard to be a better programmer than most comp sci majors.

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i've been learning VBA via the excel forums and some trial and error.

i have a very strong matlab programming ability (though can't link it to outside sources for data) and a decent SAS programming backrgound due to my stint at dept. of labor.

i wouldn't even know where to begin w/ C++/java [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

do u have any suggestions?

thanks,
Barron

[jumbojacks]

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so why don't you learn? it's not that hard to be a better programmer than most comp sci majors.

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you don't seem to know much about programming at all. sure, you can learn to pick up a particular language and everything there is to know about it, but without a good background in comp sci or relevant areas of math, it's going to be very tough to be a good programmer. i guess this is a generalized way of saying topics such as algorithms are much more important than knowing the particulars of a specific language.

i'm not entirely familiar on the subject, but those in quant fin. that focus on actually building production models really look to emphasize speed (and obviously correctness). most How to program in C++ in 21 days don't really teach you to build high speed parallelized production programs.

[stinkypete]

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i've been learning VBA via the excel forums and some trial and error.

i have a very strong matlab programming ability (though can't link it to outside sources for data) and a decent SAS programming backrgound due to my stint at dept. of labor.

i wouldn't even know where to begin w/ C++/java [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

do u have any suggestions?

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all i can really suggest is picking up a book, preferably one with decent exercises in it that you can do as you read through it. you'd have to ask someone else for specific recommendations.

[jumbojacks]

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i can't program in C++ or java, or user defined macros or use complex VBA stuff so i have lost out on a ton of jobs.


[/ QUOTE ]

so why don't you learn? it's not that hard to be a better programmer than most comp sci majors.

[/ QUOTE ]
i've been learning VBA via the excel forums and some trial and error.

i have a very strong matlab programming ability (though can't link it to outside sources for data) and a decent SAS programming backrgound due to my stint at dept. of labor.

i wouldn't even know where to begin w/ C++/java [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

do u have any suggestions?

thanks,
Barron

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How good is your fundamental understanding of programming? I ask this because I think you'll be much better off in the long run by putting some effort in being able to write good code in all languages you decide to use than being able to write code in a particular language.

As for picking up a specific language, I recommend starting off with a basic "how to" book to get a feel for all the basics of the language. Get a reference book afterwards. As practice, you should check out some of the projects assigned to comp sci students at universities with good CS departments. I think this would give you some really good practical experience. I'm currently a EE/CS student at Berkeley. You can PM me if you want any project suggestions.

[MichaelL]

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I've read at nuclearphynance that in a few years the masters in FE will be fairly obsolete because everyone will have them and to differentiate yourself you'll still need a PhD.

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i don't buy it. there's probably only 10-15 schools whose FE programs are worth anything on wall street, and their average class size is probably around 50. i don't see how less than a thousand people per year equates to everyone having an MFE in a few years.

if the MFE becomes "obsolete", it's more likely that it'll be because everyone has a phd.

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I can see where you're coming from. But what I meant was that before there was so few that they could easily find jobs in the industry however with more and more of them there'll be more and more competition (sort of like I imagine an MBA from Harvard guaranteed you a job at Goldman 15 years ago, now maybe not). The competition with PhDs? Not so much because there's always been PhDs coming over and they just fit it.

I could be entirely wrong, though.

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i can't program in C++ or java, or user defined macros or use complex VBA stuff so i have lost out on a ton of jobs.


[/ QUOTE ]

so why don't you learn? it's not that hard to be a better programmer than most comp sci majors.

[/ QUOTE ]
i've been learning VBA via the excel forums and some trial and error.

i have a very strong matlab programming ability (though can't link it to outside sources for data) and a decent SAS programming backrgound due to my stint at dept. of labor.

i wouldn't even know where to begin w/ C++/java [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

do u have any suggestions?

thanks,
Barron

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This guy http://www.markjoshi.com/ seems to be relatively respected in the community of quants, and he has some recommendations on his site for books to read for all facets of quant life.

[mathemagician54]

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Lots of quants have PhDs, lots don't. Getting a quant job without good programming skills; that's near impossible.

There is more than one type of quant in the industry, but i think my comment applies to all.

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thanks for the responses everyone. I guess I should be more specific WRT my situation. I'm an undergrad double majoring in math/cs, trying to decide if I want to pursue some higher education once I graduate, or go straight to work.

Reason this question came up is that I had a discussion with a phd student at my school's business program, and he told me many places will not even interview you if you for a quant position if you don't have a phd, which sounded extreme to me...

A lot of guys have mentioned MBA's/MFE's in this thread... does that actually benefit you for such a position moreso than a bachelor's degree, assuming you have good math/programming skills?