Too much action??

Carmine · #1 07-21-2007, 06:14 AM

I have no idea why this hand is showing up with me as a SB poster. I could have sworn villian was UTG and I was BB. I was playing several tables so maybe I timed out at some point or maybe the converter went screwy.

Anyway, Villian was only known from datamining for 30 min. prior + a few orbits. 34/11/2.

The river pulls me ahead of more than half the combinations I was behind on the turn so I went for the cap

Full Tilt 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.
BB calls, 3 folds, Hero (poster) checks.

Flop: (2 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (2 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Final Pot: 20 BB

Gurravasa · #2 07-21-2007, 06:32 AM

If you were BB and villain UTG, did he openraise and you called from BB? If that was the case I would c/r flop. I think you can dare a cap on river against most villains here, since there's not many hands that beat you.

Carmine · #3 07-21-2007, 06:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you were BB and villain UTG, did he openraise and you called from BB? If that was the case I would c/r flop. I think you can dare a cap on river against most villains here, since there's not many hands that beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a limped PF situation wheather he was UTG or BB. I was playing it under the assumption he had OL UTG.

Gurravasa · #4 07-21-2007, 09:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you were BB and villain UTG, did he openraise and you called from BB? If that was the case I would c/r flop. I think you can dare a cap on river against most villains here, since there's not many hands that beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a limped PF situation wheather he was UTG or BB. I was playing it under the assumption he had OL UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you c/c flop then? I would bet this flop for value against a limper.

TheHip41 · #5 07-21-2007, 03:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you were BB and villain UTG, did he openraise and you called from BB? If that was the case I would c/r flop. I think you can dare a cap on river against most villains here, since there's not many hands that beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a limped PF situation wheather he was UTG or BB. I was playing it under the assumption he had OL UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you c/c flop then? I would bet this flop for value against a limper.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you would bet this flop for value, so he can fold all the hands he is drawing dead with?

Betting here heads up is a serious leak. Just check, he will bet, you c/r, and bet every street.

If he checks the flop, then you can check the turn, or bet the turn if a drawy looking card hits.

Given the flop action, I'm capping the turn, and bet-3betting the river.

If he has AT, or A7, then Thank you Small Blind.

Gurravasa · #6 07-21-2007, 04:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you were BB and villain UTG, did he openraise and you called from BB? If that was the case I would c/r flop. I think you can dare a cap on river against most villains here, since there's not many hands that beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a limped PF situation wheather he was UTG or BB. I was playing it under the assumption he had OL UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you c/c flop then? I would bet this flop for value against a limper.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you would bet this flop for value, so he can fold all the hands he is drawing dead with?

Betting here heads up is a serious leak. Just check, he will bet, you c/r, and bet every street.

If he checks the flop, then you can check the turn, or bet the turn if a drawy looking card hits.

Given the flop action, I'm capping the turn, and bet-3betting the river.

If he has AT, or A7, then Thank you Small Blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was one of the worst posts in while...

What hands is he "drawing dead with"?
How do you know he will bet flop?
Why should we check turn if he check flop? That is just stupid.

TheHip41 · #7 07-21-2007, 04:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you were BB and villain UTG, did he openraise and you called from BB? If that was the case I would c/r flop. I think you can dare a cap on river against most villains here, since there's not many hands that beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a limped PF situation wheather he was UTG or BB. I was playing it under the assumption he had OL UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you c/c flop then? I would bet this flop for value against a limper.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you would bet this flop for value, so he can fold all the hands he is drawing dead with?

Betting here heads up is a serious leak. Just check, he will bet, you c/r, and bet every street.

If he checks the flop, then you can check the turn, or bet the turn if a drawy looking card hits.

Given the flop action, I'm capping the turn, and bet-3betting the river.

If he has AT, or A7, then Thank you Small Blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was one of the worst posts in while...

What hands is he "drawing dead with"?
How do you know he will bet flop?
Why should we check turn if he check flop? That is just stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

considering you suck at poker, and I'm awesome at poker, maybe you should go ahead and listen to me.

If he limped UTG, he doesn't have a big ace, he doesn't have AA-99.

What he will have is some QJ, or 76s kind of hand. Betting here stops your opponent from bluffing.

If he has an Ace, he's going to bet, then you c/r = $$$$$

If he has a broadway gutshot, he's going to bet, you c/r = $$$$

If he has 8 high, he will probably bet, you c/r = $$$$

If he has 8 high and you bet, he folds.

But seriously, betting top pair into someone HU in an unraised pot is just really bad poker.

NinaWilliams · #8 07-21-2007, 05:08 PM

Yeah dont bet this flop. Even if he has a hand thats drawing live, hell probably bet it on the flop anyway. Also, even if he doesnt, giving freecards to beat us in this small pot isnt horrible. He might even catch a pair to pay us off with.

jstill · #9 07-21-2007, 05:13 PM

the way u come across gvasa is so aggrevating, y do u have to say its one of the worst posts in awhile, its only gonna get people heated and start the flame wars that always seem to follow u around.

I think everything hip said had merit, I only really disagree with one thing I ll say later.. donking this flop vs most limpers unless retardedly passive and who will call with anything is not optimal... vs 95% of villains atleast the best line here (and likely the villains at 2/4 on full tilt almost all fall under this umbrella) is to cr the flop.

yes, we dont know he will bet the flop but we do know from playing and experience most villains will most all of the time so its worth it to ck the flop vs donking. that point was spot on IMHO.

cr'ing the turn is ok if the flop cks thru vs some villains as well gvasa dont dismiss ideas immediately just becuz its not what u would do. I wont debate this much I dont have good arguements for or against it, its not my standard reaction to a flop ck thru tho vs most without some metagame.

Carmine, Im assuming u ck'd in the bb and villain is utg, if u completed pre (something i never do and im sure u dont either) and bb just ck'd cr'ing is still best. Id never ck call or donk out fwiw, I dont think its exploitable either or atleast most villains arent smart enough to exploit it particularly those that limp preflop.

why donk, most villains autobet when ck'd to here atleast enough where its worth letting them put in a bet with any two cards when our equity is crushing and he has 4 3 or 2 outs currently (plus the pots small so his mistakes are larger, and freecards are less of a worry, very important). He could be drawing to runners and will just fold when u donk so why pass up the money u make when he bets those hands by donking since he ll just fold (and this is the majority of his range since we have 2 of the board cards hes mostly got air, and if he has a gutter he probably just folds as well in this small pot most of the time when u bet (debatable), u could have him put in 2 sbs on the flop by cr'ing and thats a better result for sure and PPs below T will sometimes fold to the donk but bet themselves when u ck and perhaps call a raise pretty often, all of which makes mucho bucks for u in this situation, far more than donking vs his range will. And if he has a made hand Tx or Ax its not like hes cking behind or if he does he ll give too much action on the turn most likely.

After i cr the flop if he raises the turn i guess I 3bet a bit reluctantly perhaps (not too many worse two pairs are in most utg limping ranges, a turn card below the 5 would have me feeling a bit better) and ck call the river if he caps.

as played if i capped the turn id bet call the river on a blank.

This river obviously makes it closer, but I think his range if he raises the river after a cap is probably 55 TT AT A7 and A5 i dont see most villains spewing even trips gook kicker after the turn cap (and thats not in villains range usually limping pre and doesnt always 3bet the turn vs a cr) so I think we should just bet call still since we re a dog vs that range.

Gurravasa · #10 07-21-2007, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you were BB and villain UTG, did he openraise and you called from BB? If that was the case I would c/r flop. I think you can dare a cap on river against most villains here, since there's not many hands that beat you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a limped PF situation wheather he was UTG or BB. I was playing it under the assumption he had OL UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you c/c flop then? I would bet this flop for value against a limper.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you would bet this flop for value, so he can fold all the hands he is drawing dead with?

Betting here heads up is a serious leak. Just check, he will bet, you c/r, and bet every street.

If he checks the flop, then you can check the turn, or bet the turn if a drawy looking card hits.

Given the flop action, I'm capping the turn, and bet-3betting the river.

If he has AT, or A7, then Thank you Small Blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was one of the worst posts in while...

What hands is he "drawing dead with"?
How do you know he will bet flop?
Why should we check turn if he check flop? That is just stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

considering you suck at poker, and I'm awesome at poker, maybe you should go ahead and listen to me.

If he limped UTG, he doesn't have a big ace, he doesn't have AA-99.

What he will have is some QJ, or 76s kind of hand. Betting here stops your opponent from bluffing.

If he has an Ace, he's going to bet, then you c/r = $$$$$

If he has a broadway gutshot, he's going to bet, you c/r = $$$$

If he has 8 high, he will probably bet, you c/r = $$$$

If he has 8 high and you bet, he folds.

But seriously, betting top pair into someone HU in an unraised pot is just really bad poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol... you seem to know a lot about this opponent... But seriously, your advice is very bad and i suggest that anyone playing 2/4 at FT don't listen to them. Bet your good hands for value, don't expect unknown villains to do the betting for you. Also they can think that you are bluffing and call you down when they would have folded against a c/r. Further I think checking two streets with aces up is one of the most stupid ideas I've heard. Don't you like money Hip?