Review: Winning in Tough Hold 'em Games by Stox/Zobags

[stoxtrader]

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I like the basic info on the blinds , but I ask the question, does this information in this book put me out in front of good to great players? unfortunately the answer for me is no. maybe the answer for others is yes. but the question is,unless there are players making regular mistakes at the higher levels, then in the long run a winning player can still lose money since there is no edge.
As well, aggression can cover for other wise sup optimal play and make it more difficult. I think you are really straight gambling at those levels. Obviously just my opinion. But a good example might be a player such as the russian hassuwip who appears to play sub par but his aggression makes up for it, and drives players crazy.
good luck

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table/game selection is certainly important here, also being able to correctly identify and exploit bad play is a corollary to identifying good play and not opening yourself up to exploitation. From a game theory perspective, there can be a tradeoff between playing in an unexploitable fashion, and playing in a fashion that exploits other's play.

[Adman]

I probably shouldn't even comment here since I am nowhere near the limits you guys are discussing but surely in nosebleed games like Stox plays there is NO WAY you are going to have a 2bb/100 win rate or anything like that? I would imagine that if your winrate is even slightly positive in those games then you are most likely doing very, very well. I mean surely there are no real fish at that limit and if there were they wouldn't last very long. Weak losing players simply couldn't afford to continually play that high unless they are rock stars or movie stars who occasionally play a bit of poker for fun on weekends or whatever!

In those games the edge any one player would have over others could only possibly be very small and could take quite some time to manifest itself in the form of earnings. I assume most of the players there have moved up to that limit after being proven winners in smaller games? I really doubt someone says to themselves one evening "I might give online poker a try. I'll deposit 180 grand and give 300/600 limit a bash. That should be fun."

With regards to the book I find it fascinating and I'm going to start my third reading today when I'm sitting on my ass in my boring job this afternoon. I will be very interested to read Dave Fromm's shorthanded book since a lot of the recommendations he makes in his DVD set directly contradict Stox.

[ddubois]

I'm half-way through the book, and I feel like I've read 20 pages. The tables, they make my eyes bleed! While I think it important that the author's have poured over every piece of data contained in the innumerable tables contained in this book, I think we the readers would have been just fine if the data had been provided solely online, and only the author's analysis and conclusions been printed. The only thing I got out of those tables is a chuckle when High open-folded AA from the SB.

[tolbiny]

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I'm half-way through the book, and I feel like I've read 20 pages. The tables, they make my eyes bleed! While I think it important that the author's have poured over every piece of data contained in the innumerable tables contained in this book, I think we the readers would have been just fine if the data had been provided solely online, and only the author's analysis and conclusions been printed. The only thing I got out of those tables is a chuckle when High open-folded AA from the SB.

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Stox, this is definitely a good book.
I do have criticisms on the formatting of the hand quizzes.
1. Start each hand at the top of its own page. this makes the action easier to follow and leaves room at the bottom for notes. Since this book should be viewed more like a text book/reference material it would be great to have room to make notations, and this is most apparent in the quiz section.
2. How much would it cost to have the suits colored? Especially with this book being geared toward online players it would be a much easier read if the suits were in the standard 4 color deck setup. I personally identify flushes more by color than shape nowadays (god help me when i play live) and i think a lot of other online players would agree.

If these two suggestions are two expensive how about offering a regular and a "student" version which would have more room for notes,/an easier format for an extra $10.

Third: Distribute the charts as a file to anyone who buys the book (or buys through conjelco), lots of good info in them, but they are so much harder to read in the size and format they are in, scanning and enlarging is a lower quality option and i would much prefer to have an electronic copy.

Fourth: i still have no confidence in the bindings of these books.

[tolbiny]

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In those games the edge any one player would have over others could only possibly be very small and could take quite some time to manifest itself in the form of earnings. I assume most of the players there have moved up to that limit after being proven winners in smaller games? I really doubt someone says to themselves one evening "I might give online poker a try. I'll deposit 180 grand and give 300/600 limit a bash. That should be fun."

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A lot of the fish at higher games tend to be lower players who run hot and jump up in stakes. They might drop 1,000 into a site, play 10/20 and run it up to 10,000 and give 50/100 a shot. you also get lower stakes regulars who take a shot/get drunk/tilt and chase losses, or someone who makes a big score in a donkament or NL game.

[stoxtrader]

tolbiny - all good suggestions, however I think its a longshot they get implemented, and would be more mason's decision than mine. They seem to have a set process, and you can't argue with the results. It has been great working with them overall and I apppreciate the way they have treated us.

I think adding color is very expensive but I do not know. Also, Adding pages to the already daunting text in the way of more blank space would also be more expensive and also might cause complaints of the opposite nature to yours. I do think we could have put the results charts 50 pages worth? as a reference table in the back, but its not a travesty.

[Mason Malmuth]

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1. Start each hand at the top of its own page. this makes the action easier to follow and leaves room at the bottom for notes. Since this book should be viewed more like a text book/reference material it would be great to have room to make notations, and this is most apparent in the quiz section.

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We're concious of page count. Not only is more pages more expensive to produce, we can begin to introduce binding and shipping problems if the page count gets too high.

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2. How much would it cost to have the suits colored? Especially with this book being geared toward online players it would be a much easier read if the suits were in the standard 4 color deck setup. I personally identify flushes more by color than shape nowadays (god help me when i play live) and i think a lot of other online players would agree.

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Four color process is much more expensive. In addition, to keep costs down we often "gang" several books together. So if we went to one book in four color process they would now all be that way even if they have no other colors in them.

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If these two suggestions are two expensive how about offering a regular and a "student" version which would have more room for notes,/an easier format for an extra $10.

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This creates many problems for us. First, short printing runs are much more expensive per unit. Second, you create another new manuscript to typeset, edit, and proofread. This would hold up other projects. And third, you would create confusion among buyers. Simply put, we just don't have this capability in our small company.

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Distribute the charts as a file to anyone who buys the book (or buys through conjelco), lots of good info in them, but they are so much harder to read in the size and format they are in, scanning and enlarging is a lower quality option and i would much prefer to have an electronic copy.

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The charts are the size they are so that they would fit in the book and not take up too much space. We could have laid them out "landscape" instead of "portrait" (or put them sideways) but that would have driven the page count up significantly.

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Fourth: i still have no confidence in the bindings of these books.

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Then I suggest you form your own publishing company and do a better job.

MM

[JackCase]

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If these two suggestions are two expensive how about offering a regular and a "student" version which would have more room for notes,/an easier format for an extra $10.

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The things on your wish list are the factors that result in $50-$100 college text books. An "extra $10" is totally unrealistic. How about an extra $50-$75?

As an aside, I have relatives in the publishing industry. Anytime they are doing anything in color, they find it cost effective to have it printed in Asia and pay the freight to ship it back. That should give you some idea about what color costs.


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Any color - so long as it's black.
Henry Ford

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[tolbiny]

Mason,
thanks for the comments, if the extra costs are to much, then i guess the extra costs are to much, they are just somethings I would like to see if possible.

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The charts are the size they are so that they would fit in the book and not take up too much space. We could have laid them out "landscape" instead of "portrait" (or put them sideways) but that would have driven the page count up significantly.

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I was suggesting an electronic file of some kind that people could manipulate on their own.

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Then I suggest you form your own publishing company and do a better job.


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Mason, unless i created some kind of revolutionary binding that never failed and cost pennies to produce i wouldn't stand a chance, your books are just to damn good. This is, I believe, the 15th 2+2 book I own, and I've bought several non 2+2 books thanks to your book reviews, so I hope you always remember that when you read these little nit picks, its becuase there is nothing major that is ever wrong with them.

[MyTurn2Raise]

I like the cover