phydaux's PBP - Confessions of a uNL grinder

chopchoi · #1 09-07-2007, 11:56 PM

Great post over all, but I thought the following part was golden:

[ QUOTE ]
Also, many of the times when I raised from the Hi-Jack, counting on position and aggression to see me through the hand, I found myself called by the Cut Off or the Button. And suddenly I was playing from out of position in a raised pot with a marginal holding.

This lead me to the first adjustment I made to my game. I realized that late position is actually later than I initially thought. Stars FR NL tables are 9-handed. Once you remove the button & the blinds, that leaves six seats. Initially, I divided these six into three neat pairs. UTG & UTG+1 were both Early Position, the next two seats were Middle Position, and the Cut Off & Hi Jack were both Late Position. This was neat and easy to remember, but it was utterly wrong-headed.

I now consider the first three seats after the blinds to all be Early Position. The Hi Jack and one seat to his left are Middle Position. The only seats I consider Late Position are the Button and the Cut Off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just wanted to expound a little bit on why the CO is so much better than the Hijack. There's only a one seat difference between the CO and HJ, so at first glance it might seem that the value of these two positions is similar. That is just dead wrong. When you are in the CO, there is only one player left to act after you. In the Hijack, there are two players left to act after you. So, you are TWICE as likely to get called and have to play the hand OOP when you raise from the Hijack as you are when you raise from the CO.

I know it seems pretty obvious, but I never thought about it in those terms until I read your post. Thanks for the insight.

Cry Me A River · #2 09-08-2007, 12:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I especially have problems when I'm in late position and face a raise to my right. I am now in the worst relative position I can be in. How should this affect hand requirements & how can I regain the initiative?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean on your left or on your right? If on your right, you have good position on the raiser.

So I'm going to assume you meant left.

For example, I am MP with 33. UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, I limp, player behind me raises to 7BB.

That what you mean?

I'm going to assume it is.

There's a couple things that determine what I do here.

First and foremost is my read on the raiser and his range from that position.

If the raise came from a player who is also MP with stats of 10/3/2 then this is very different from if raise came from button who is 20/10/4.

If raiser is MP with 10/3/2 we can assume he has a big pair or AK at worst. So the next question is will he stack off with an overpair if I hit a set. If the answer is yes (and it often is for players with these kinds of stats) then I will be inclined to call. OTOH, if this was a good TAG who will not stack off with an overpair then I'm more inclined to fold unless I think I can steal/bluff against him.

If villain is loose and aggressive (20/10/4) then I'm more inclined to want to play pots with him and try to trap him with a monster even though I am OOP. OTOH, if he raised from the button then his range is huge. So I may call donk a low flop and try to take it away from him assuming he has missed overcards a lot of the time. Obv this only works against LAGs who can actually fold.

The second big factor is whether anybody else calls and what type of player(s) they are. In the example I outlined above, if the EP limpers all fold then I'm less inclined to want to play this pot. If the both call then I'm much more inclined because the pot will already be bloated. This gives me better immediate odds AND better implied odds because it's going to be easier to stack someone if I hit - Their cbet is going to be much bigger than in a head's up pot and my raise will be proportionally bigger, etc.

So you consider all these factors when you decide if you want to see a flop OOP with a speculative hand. If the raiser is terrible and every donkey at the table is in the hand then I'm def looking to set mine. OTOH, if it's going to be a HU pot and villain is a good TAG then I'm probably just folding unless I think it's about time to make a play on someone.

Chargers In 07 · #3 09-08-2007, 01:26 AM

CMAR good thoughts there. I think he did mean to the right if it becomes a multiway pot because people will check to the raiser or he will be betting into multiple people with you to act first behind him. These spots are somewhat troublesome.

for example:
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP1 ($64.05)
MP2 ($34.70)
MP3 ($24.95)
Hero ($50)
Button ($48.75)
SB ($49.50)
BB ($9.65)
UTG ($55.35)
UTG+1 ($55.25)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $1, 1 fold, MP2 calls $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $1, 2 folds, BB calls $0.50.

Flop: ($4.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets $1.5, MP2 folds, Hero calls $1.50, BB raises to $8.65, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $8.75

Win.by.TKo · #4 09-08-2007, 10:49 AM

CMAR, thanks for the insights for raises on the left. However, Charger was correct. I am looking for help in exactly that spot, esp. after flop if PF raiser is to my right. I have been burnt several times in this spot in uNL. I am seeking advice on the proper adjustments in this situation.

Thanks to all.

Cry Me A River · #5 09-08-2007, 11:48 AM

Huh. I don't understand the problem then.

If you're playing small pockets or SC's vs a raise you either hit a monster, or monster draw. Otherwise you fold.

I don't think Charger's hand is an example of what you're looking for.

1 - Hero has the best possible position, there's no one behind him.
2 - Villain makes a min-raise pf which is [censored].
3 - Villain makes a small cbet on a pretty dry flop that gets checkraised by BB. Not raised by someone behind hero.

BTW - I'm folding or raising in Chargers hand, depending on what I think that villains min-raise/weak cbet means (usually missed overs but some villains like to do this kind of crap with monsters) and whether he can fold those overs. Gutshots are garbage.

I'm going to turn this into what Win.by.TKo describes...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($50)
MP2 ($34.70)
MP3 ($24.95)
CO ($64.05)
Button ($48.75)
SB ($49.50)
BB ($9.65)
UTG ($55.35)
UTG+1 ($55.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $2, Hero calls $2, MP2 calls $2, 2 folds, Button calls $2, 1 fold, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($10.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets $8, MP2 folds, Hero folds.

What's hard about that?

Let's say instead flop was a little different:

Flop: ($10.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img](5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets $8, MP2 folds, Hero folds.

What's hard about that? If there was nobody behind me, I'd be inclined to play back at UTG+1 but given that UTG+1 just cbet into 4 players and one of the set miners behind me may well have hit his 44/55 I'm not sticking around to find out in my mid-TPNK is any good when we could easily be playing for stacks any minute now.

There are only three reasons you want to stick around in a raised pot:

1) You want to play for stacks.
2) You think you can take it away from the PFR (raising a low flop, floating, etc).
3) You're getting good odds to draw but don't want to play for stacks yet (usually because you have no FE).

In bloated, multiway, raised pots your goal is almost always to get yourself into a situation 1) or 3), you'll almost never have a good opportunity for 2). So just get out unless you're prepared to felt.

Cry Me A River · #6 09-08-2007, 12:03 PM

Let me just reiterate this.

Head's up, 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on a flop of 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is a pretty strong hand. What's more, since it's HU the pot is going to be small and finding out if I'm good (ie: by raising) is not going to cost me much money.

In a large, multiway pot, 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on a flop of 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is a marginal hand. And it's going to take me very close to pot-committing myself to find out where I stand.

Play big pots with your big hands, play small pots with your weak hands and you will win at poker.