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#11
08-11-2007, 11:50 AM
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Re: Fun w/ Flush Draw
[ QUOTE ]
Here's one that I can't believe I didn't post before. And for the nit out there, this hand actually happened at Commerce. Commerce 40-80, 6 handed. UTG is tight, aggressive, and good. In fact, quite good. In two days of playing with him I haven't seen him miss value, get out of line, or even be that straightforward. Hijack is loose and bad, and everyone knows it. He coldcalls and peels like it's his favorite thing to do. Preflop: UTG raises, hijack coldcalls, folded to The Dude who calls from the SB w/ A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. BB folds. Flop: (7 SBs) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 Players)</font> The Dude checks, UTG bets, hijack calls, The Dude raises. UTG calls, hijack folds. Turn: (6 BBs) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 Players)</font> The Dude bets, hijack raises, The Dude calls. River: (10 BBs) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 Players)</font> The Dude checks. Comments? [/ QUOTE ] clean up the hand...in one breath u said the HIJACK FOLDED the FLOP and then on the TURN he somehow raises YOU??? did u go and get his cards from the muck???? 
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#12
08-11-2007, 12:05 PM
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Re: Fun w/ Flush Draw
Preflop seems a little thin here. But you might be able to squeeze UTG out postflop and leave it HU with the HJ.
Everything else it fine. If he was going to fold, he'd likely have done it on the turn. C/f the river. b
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#13
08-11-2007, 01:13 PM
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Re: Fun w/ Flush Draw
[ QUOTE ]
You jammed this pot on the flop before you knew what UTG has. Once he calls your raise, you know he has at least AQ and you are behind. Given your flop play, I would've checked this turn card anticipating the UTG raise. This was too expensive a chase for you to come up empty handed... [/ QUOTE ] He's got a point here imo. If UTG's got that AQ+ (i would say KQ+) he did not reraised the flop in order to keep the bad player in action. If less than AQ which hands can he call your c/r with? If you think that calling that extra flop bet with AK or a middle pocket is right then i like your play. If he's the kind to muck them for one more bet i would say that Black is right. (excuse my english [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] )
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#15
08-11-2007, 03:04 PM
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Re: Fun w/ Flush Draw
Given your description of UTG, isn't this a muck preflop? I'm not a big fan of playing ATs out of position against a non straightforward non value missing non out of line good player.
The flop is pretty standard i think. Once he calls the flop though I think there is a very good chance you are getting raised on the turn if you elect to bet. He's a good player, probably recognizes that you are a good player, and will think "well he either has a set or a flush draw, let's see which" and raise the turn. That's why against players like this who know you're good but don't totally know you and know that you are capable of sick semi bluffs like this I sometimes bet 3 bet this turn. So I guess what I'm saying is that I like bet 3 betting this turn against this particular opponent.
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#17
08-12-2007, 01:21 PM
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Re: Fun w/ Flush Draw
So, thinking about this hand even now pisses me off, because this is the kind of lazy [censored] I do too often. I stop thinking mid-hand.
When he didn't 3-bet the flop, I thought "awesome, he doesn't have a Q or higher pair." Obviously he'd 3-bet those for value/protection. Then, he raised me on the turn and I called. Before the dealer put the river card out there, I thought "f***, he just free-showdowned me with a pocket pair. Why the f*** didn't I 3bet the turn?" Of course he checked behind on the river and showed JJ. Put yourselves in UTG's shoes. What hand, Q or better, can you not 3-bet with the hijack still in? None, except maybe QQ or 77. What made hand worse than top pair can you call down the turn 3-bet with? None. The bad thing about this hand is that, after he called the flop, I knew he didn't have a good hand. But on the turn I just stopped thinking. Ughh.
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#18
08-12-2007, 01:32 PM
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Re: Fun w/ Flush Draw
UTG was on to you from the start. He's obviously seen enough of you to accurately put you on a spade draw with the c/r (since so many consider this a "standard" play). Put yourself in his position for a moment: SB leads the flop, leads the turn, and you think he calls down or gets tricky with a player yet to act behind him? I'll bet you take down a pot uncontested much of the time. So much, in fact, that I think you must bet the flop in these situations...
EDIT: your title, "Fun w/Flush Draw" is a misnomer, unless your idea of 'fun' is losing 3 big bets rather than taking down an easy pot...
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#19
08-12-2007, 01:44 PM
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Re: Fun w/ Flush Draw
[ QUOTE ]
UTG was on to you from the start. He's obviously seen enough of you to accurately put you on a spade draw with the c/r (since so many consider this a "standard" play). [/ QUOTE ] One reason it's standard is because your range for c/r'ing this is wider than just a flush draw. You also don't necesarily want to fold your other action behind the PFR yet. You want money going in on this street. No reason to really fight and protect a 3BB pot. [ QUOTE ] I'll bet you take down a pot uncontested much of the time. So much, in fact, that I think you must bet the flop in these situations... and you think he calls down or gets tricky with a player yet to act behind him? [/ QUOTE ] Are you 3 betting this flop when you get raised? Alot of times, the PFR will raise it, get it HU, then call you down if you donk the turn. b
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#20
08-12-2007, 01:44 PM
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Re: Fun w/ Flush Draw
[ QUOTE ]
I think you must bet the flop in these situations... [/ QUOTE ] I've actually been doing more flop donking in these kinds of situations, although against this opponent I'm not sure it would have mattered. But yeah, I've been doing more donking with my flopped flush draws. [ QUOTE ] your title, "Fun w/Flush Draw" is a misnomer, unless your idea of 'fun' is losing 3 big bets rather than taking down an easy pot... [/ QUOTE ] My idea of fun in limit poker is any hand that I can't play in my sleep. If I get one of these a night I'm happy.
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