Ok, who's your NBA MVP?

[Assani Fisher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
countdown to the Steve Nash debate....

[/ QUOTE ]

knew it when the thread started. Honestly theres no point in it. I could probably rerash the anti-Nash argument word for word by now, and I'm sure the other side could do the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize that you pretty much baited it, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? I even said that I picked Dirk.

Shadowrun was the one who came in here backing Nash, JoA then replied and implied that Nash didn't deserve to win the first two(this is what really started it imo), someone chimed in saying that Nash wasn't even the MVP of his own team, and I stayed out of it the entire time.

Just in the past 10 posts have I begun to get into the Nash debate, and I wasn't even trying to! I was trying to make the point that Dirk doesn't get a lot of hate. In trying to make that point, I mentioned something about all 3 players(that they were top 30 of all time) and someone, of course, ignored the other two players but questioned my putting Nash in the top 30. Then finally after all that, I entered the Nash debate.

How do you possibly view all that and think that I am the one who baited it???

[Assani Fisher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[image]
EDIT: Suns could easily still win their division with Barbosa as a starter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Suns have done horribly this year without Nash even though they played a soft schedule when he was hurt. And they lost in convincing fashion to boot in several of the games.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a convincing argument against Nash's MVP case. Anyway, Dirky Dirk Dirk. Duncan #2. A tangle at the pretty distant three between Kobe, Lebron, et al.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

The time Nash missed hurt his team as they played terribly without him.

All of the "Well, without N his team would be terrible" arguments are absurd. That's not what MVP should honor. Would Dirk's MVP candidacy be improved by him spiking Josh Howards Gatorade in November and therefore being a bigger fish on a crappier team?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dirk has missed 2 games, Nash has missed 6. I can't believe that you seriously think that 4 more games is a good argument for Dirk....and I think Dirk should win it; I just don't think this is a reason why.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh oh....Dirk got hurt today.

[Jack of Arcades]

Assani,

With my reply to Shadowrun I was pointing out a glaring logical fallacy. That is all.

Anyway, if we just do the last 25 years I might be able to come up with 30 better than Nash.

Jordan
Shaq
Robinson
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Duncan
Barkley
Malone
Stockton
Ewing
Kidd
Isiah
'Nique
Worthy
Pippen
Reggie
Drexler
Garnett
McHale
Parish
Rodman
Kobe
Payton
Kemp
Dikembe
Alonzo
Oakley
Dirk

I'm sure you could quibble with a few, but the first say 20 or so look solid, and that's just the last 27 years.

[Shadowrun]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assani,
Not adjusting for eras is really dumb.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure why you feel one way of looking at things is "dumb" just because its not the way you do it.

[/ QUOTE ]
No it is dumb because not adjusting for eras means that Lyle Overbay > Lou Gehrig.
You need to adjust for eras or it is pretty much impossible to objectively compare players from other eras.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow baseball that much today...who is Lyle Overbay?

[/ QUOTE ]

i believe he is a 1b for toronto, he is pretty solid and makes a great backup for you fantasy owners.

[.Alex.]

Speaking of logical fallacies, I like how people cry that Dirk will only get the MVP because of his team, and then turn around and argue that Kobe should be MVP since his teammates suck.

[Eagles]

Kobe is a great basketball player who should definetely be considered for MVP. He is not a selfish player but his team sucks and for them to be decent he needs to take over games.

Dirk is a great player with a strong supporting cast. Giving him MVP would be fine.

Nash is a very good player but not on the same level of Dirk/Kobe. comparing Nash's stats to his other "MVP" seasons is usless because it works under the assumption he should have won those MVP's. Just because the writers made a mistake two years in a row does not mean they should justify making a third mistake.

[tuq]

Jack,

CHARLES OAKLEY!!!!!1

Seriously, that post gives you a slight lead over TSC in the race to prove who hates Nash more.

[Jack of Arcades]

tuq,

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] nash. He's very annoying when the Mavs have to play him and I hope the Suns lose every game, but how can I hate him?

Like I said I was reaching towards the end but I feel that there are obviously like 20 or so guys that are better than him over the last 20 years and once you add in the older players Nash just doesn't rank among the other players who get the MVPs and back to back MVPs.

[Assani Fisher]

[ QUOTE ]
Assani,

With my reply to Shadowrun I was pointing out a glaring logical fallacy. That is all.

Anyway, if we just do the last 25 years I might be able to come up with 30 better than Nash.

Jordan
Shaq
Robinson
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Duncan
Barkley
Malone
Stockton
Ewing
Kidd
Isiah
'Nique
Worthy
Pippen
Reggie
Drexler
Garnett
McHale
Parish
Rodman
Kobe
Payton
Kemp
Dikembe
Alonzo
Oakley
Dirk

I'm sure you could quibble with a few, but the first say 20 or so look solid, and that's just the last 27 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

JoA, we're seriously going over the same debate again and again.

I think that Nash's shooting percentage for a guard is simply insane(particular compared to his era). I think this makes him much more valuable than you're giving him credit for. I honestly think that Nash could average 30+ per game if he wanted to. He only takes 13 shots per game and scores 19 per game. Kobe takes 22 per game and scores 31 points per gaem. If Nash shot the ball 9 more times per game and averaged 30+, would that change your view of him? Because I think he could EASILY do this. Thats why I think hes so special.



I will also add this: You listed Charles Oakley. Steve Nash has more MVPs than Charles Oakley has all star appearances. Think about that for a second.

I don't really know what this exercise is going to accomplish, as I'm just going to go through your list and name a bunch of players I think Nash is better than, and you're going to disagree.

Let me take one player as an example: Reggie Miller. Steve Nash this year is shooting over 53%. Reggie never shot even 52% in any season. Nash is shooting over 47% from 3. Miller never shot over 42% from 3. IMO Reggie Miller is a great player; Steve Nash gives you everything Miller does but then combines the court vision and passing of Magic/Stockton to go along with it! That is why I think hes so ridiculously good.

Now I realize that Nash is weak at D. YOu don't have to remind me of that- I'm fully aware. But imo, the ability for a guard to shoot 53% from the field and 47% from the 3 is simply insane. Even without great passsing ability, I'd say that a guard that could do that would be an all time great. Then when you add in excellent passing ability, you have a player that is simply off the charts.


Anyway, I'm sure all of the anti-Nash crowd is rolling their eyes right now. You all think his weak D hurts him more than I do, you all think the Phoenix system helps him, and so on and so on. I get that. You get my points. Are we ever going to agree?

Since you asked, I'll humor you. Here are the players on your list that I would take over Nash if I could have them at the beginning of their careers:


MJ
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan
Garnett
Kobe


Malone, Robinson, Barkley, Pippen, and a few others came close to making the list, and honestly I'm not completely sure right now as I'd have to look up the numbers and think about it for a bit. Either way, its clear that I value Nash much more than you do.

[tuq]

Jack,

OK fair enough. It just seems that sometimes you step out of your normally stat-driven analytical mode to take some pretty weird swipes at Nash, but maybe I'm being defensive.

Also, the list isn't bad. I could see where an argument could be made where Nash is "better" overall than some of those guys, but he would need a couple more productive seasons to take a clear edge over some guys like Isiah. It's just Oakley doesn't belong on that list at all...